VoyForums
[ Show ]
Support VoyForums
[ Shrink ]
VoyForums Announcement: Programming and providing support for this service has been a labor of love since 1997. We are one of the few services online who values our users' privacy, and have never sold your information. We have even fought hard to defend your privacy in legal cases; however, we've done it with almost no financial support -- paying out of pocket to continue providing the service. Due to the issues imposed on us by advertisers, we also stopped hosting most ads on the forums many years ago. We hope you appreciate our efforts.

Show your support by donating any amount. (Note: We are still technically a for-profit company, so your contribution is not tax-deductible.) PayPal Acct: Feedback:

Donate to VoyForums (PayPal):

[ Login ] [ Main index ] [ Post a new message ] [ Search | Check update time | Archives: 1, [2], 3, 4 ]

[ Next Thread | Previous Thread | Next Message | Previous Message ]

Date Posted: 05:12:04 08/05/04 Thu
Author: Gem
Author Host/IP: dialup-190.14.221.203.acc02-fred-lau.comindico.com.au / 203.221.14.190
Subject: Retro buffy school Hard
In reply to: Gem 's message, "A Kajul post" on 05:10:19 08/05/04 Thu

Date Posted: 13:47:29 02/04/04 Wed
Author: merrick981
Author Host/IP: 66.38.79.200
Subject: Retro Buffy Discussion: "School Hard"....topic : Spike, Life, and Juggling

Retro Buffy Discussion Wednesday. Today we look at the episode "School Hard." Remember to follow board rules and to no bashing of characters. RBT is a time to re-watch BTVS. We watch the eps Tuesday night at 8, and talk about them each Wed. Eps are viewed just as they would have been when they first aired....starting with S1, ep1.

Episode: School Hard
Topic: Spike

So this is the grand introduction for a certain vampire, (actualy 2 vampires) that will severely alter the course of the series; Spike and Drusilla. Granted, the arrive during a turbulent week for Buffy. Isn't that how it always is though, just when you don't need anymore to happen, one more thing seems to pile on? Nevertheless, the arrival of Spike and Drusilla yield changes for our heroine, and for all involved in her life.

This episode was really nothing more than a "set up" episode. Oh sure, there were the elimates we see in each BTVS episode...the scoobies working together in research, we see the further romance of Giles and Jenny, we see Cordelia and her sarcasm and brutality (but also her increasing involvement in the SG). We see The center piece for the episode....school, and how Buffy is constantly being watched and reprimanded by Snyder. In truth though, this ep really operates on two fronts. First, the obvious "school hard" situation, where Buffy tries to convince Snyder she isn't a trouble maker and keep her Mom from finding out she has "issues" with school. This is merely a mask for the real story (2nd) to introduce us all to Spike and Drusilla......ultimately what I think to be the purpose of this ep.

The episode shows how Buffy must balance her friends, her school, her mom, and her slaying.........all important aspects that lead to Buffy's near breakdown at the end of S2. These are important factors and the episode properly brings them out into the open! We continue to see how the stress builds on Buffy, we see how it wears her down, and we can almost "feel" what it would be like to have to balance those issues (some of us balance similar roles daily, and my hat goes off to you). While this episode gives us a more specific glimpse as to the pressure Buffy endures, it doesn't go into too much detail or allow Buffy to breakdown. This episode gives us a taste of what life is like, what reality is like, and whats its like for many of us who have to juggle daily. Whether it be kids, jobs, bills, employees, employers, bookeeping, or athletics and school...this ep reminds us Buffy is a teenager and a student/daughter in addition to being the slayer.

"School Hard" gives us more than that though, it gives us Spike and Drusilla. A truly dynamic couple that really changed the scenery in Sunnydale and on the show. The two have charisma, flare, and ties to Angel. They give us more detail about Angel, they give us new bad guys, bad guys we loved to hate at the time (but also bad guys we had to love). They are intriguing, mysterious, a little crazy (Dru), and down right evil anc cocky. Who would have guessed Spike would become a permanent picture in the BTVS and AtS series'? Ships aside, Spike is a great character and really helped to add to the show, as much for JM's acting as Spikes own journey. Spike represents what we all want to be (at least guys) from time to time. The leather jacket wearing, arrogant, romantic, fighter that gets the girl on his terms and does things "his way." This episdoe brings us Spike (and Dru who is just as intriguing) to the show, and does it in style. I mean, what better way to make an entrance than to have a black chevy drive over the "Welcome to Sunnydale" sign. Great writing.

I really like this ep cause it was a fun episode. It had humor amidst caos, and spike was a large part of that. I enjoyed the SG scenes, and Angel/Buffy flirts going on. Loved Cordy and Willow in the closet (HA) and the wit with Mrs. Calendar to Giles ("You realy must read something published after 1062"). Spikes one liners, his poetry, his bad ass Billy Idol "rebel yell" attitude, Drusilla's "craziness," Xander and Angel's scene in the battle (great stuff between the two people that really hate each other), and the care that Joyce and Giles show Buffy. Its all good stuff, and this episode starts down a little different road, demonstrating that Buffy must come to terms with all the juggling she is having to do....just not yet. Its funny, Spike is one that helps her (in a small way) come to terms, and his intro was very important to the series, obviously.

So what are some of your thoughts on this episode.?? I know you all had to love Spike, but what did you think about the "juggling life" I mentioned in regards to Buffy and to us all? Do you think S2 was so good because it addressed issues like that, but not as painfully (until Becoming part II) as S6? Let me know what you think.

[ Next Thread | Previous Thread | Next Message | Previous Message ]


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Replies:

[> The juggling of youth (2) versus (6)? -- TGWShark, 14:29:59 02/04/04 Wed [1] (208.35.252.89)

I agree the episode does a great job of highlighting the demands placed on Buffy by her mom, her principal, and her Watcher. I like the way it allows Joyce to start the slow process of coming to see just what is different about her strange daughter. One advantage Buffy had, though she'd deny it, was that she had a gift she could use to help make the world a better place. At an age when many teens have no clue what their life is about, she had a clear picture of her purpose even if she chafed against the restrictions of it.

Now, concerning Spike, it's fun to watch the episode knowing how his arc eventually develops. Wittingly or not, JM establishes a connection between Spike and the Slayer early on beyond just that between mortal enemies.

The final scene with the Annointed sums up what Spike and Dru brought to the series. They began a depiction of gleeful evil that carried over into Angelus, the Mayor, and Glory. To me, the less effective "Bads" over the years (Adam, Willow, the Master, and the First Evil) come up short in part because they don't exhibit the "fun side of evil" that Spike and Dru did.

[ Post a Reply to This Message ][Edit]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> well put -- merrick981, 14:43:10 02/04/04 Wed [1] (66.38.79.200)


[ Post a Reply to This Message ][Edit]


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Oh I haven't seen it for ages.... -- Chani, 14:51:00 02/04/04 Wed [1] (212.198.0.93)

But I agree about the purpose you pointed out, and the "School Hard" pattern.

As for Spike & Dru...

There was something different about those two, you could see it as soon as they appeared on screen. Their couple was unique, Dru was special and intriguing because of her madness, Spike was the one who broke the doors, the rules, the Welcome to Sunnydale sign...who killed the "Annoying One" instead of submiting.

And I agree with Sharky, the first B/S scene when he watched her dancing and later in the alley, or in the High School really set an unusual connection between those mortal enemies, but I don't think it's only JM that did it...Compare Buffy's behaviour with Spike to her behaviour with Luke in season 1 for instance!

[ Post a Reply to This Message ][Edit]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Wonderful review merrick and great thoughts Sharkey -- Pixi, 15:41:50 02/04/04 Wed [1] (207.30.202.147)

Pretty hard to find anything wrong with this episode. So, so much fun. Good point about Spike right away making a connection with Buffy. And you know - I got that romantic vibe right away because any girl who has read even one romance novel in her life knows that when the gal meets the guy that she will eventually end up with they always hate each other at first sight and verbally spar while they are subliminally attracted. I got that vibe.

As for the juggling - yes it did show how difficult life can be. As a master juggler myself and the parent of munchkins who juggle work, dance class, school work, church and home chores - I know it isn't easy. Not for the parents or for the children. But you're right - it was easy for Buffy to at least know her life path because the teen years are all about trying to find the path aren't they?

Ahhh - just a wonderful ep. And so fun to see the annoying one gone - I hate with a fiery passion when child actors are miscast. I adored Jack in The Shining but that kid -the hero of the story - Danny who should shine - oh how I hated the kid they cast. (not personally he just wasn't right for the part). And the annoying one - just seemed bratty to me - never evil.

[ Post a Reply to This Message ][Edit]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Kudos for your juggling, Pixi -- merrick981, 15:53:15 02/04/04 Wed [1] (66.38.79.200)


[ Post a Reply to This Message ][Edit]


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Buffy the Conformist versus Spike the Nonconformist -- Still Dancing, 15:57:20 02/04/04 Wed [1] (199.35.130.165)

Not much time before I have to leave to pick up my son at school, but I wanted to add a thought.
I agree that this episode shows Buffy struggling with balancing her perceived responsibilites and trying to satisfy everyone's expectations for her and her expectations for herself. She wants so desperately to fit in, to have a 'normal' life, to please others. This certainly reaches crisis proportions in Season 6. Here she still juggles fairly adeptly. Notice, though, that when Joyce and Snyder try to stop her Buffy goes her own way.
When Spike arrives in Sunnydale, he 'goes through the motions' of trying to fit into the established hierarchical vampire system of the Annointed/Annoying one that was the Master's legacy. This is doomed from the start. Quickly and by the end of the episode he completely loses patience and shows his disgust by killing the Annoying One. "From now on, we'll have a little less praying and a lot more fun"-or words to that effect. Spike related to individuals and not to groups. His meeting and posturing with Angel reveals their close former relationship. Mentor/student and rivals. Spike speaks in his usual snarky way of his sense of betrayal and abandonment by Angel. I'm out of time, so I'll just close by saying that Spike's fascination with Buffy, whether as prey, opponent or woman, is shown from their first 'dance'.

[ Post a Reply to This Message ][Edit]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> I agree, the dance began then... -- Chani, 16:03:16 02/04/04 Wed [1] (212.198.0.93)

Actually Buffy pretended to be conformist but she turned out to be a very unconformist Slayer later....

[ Post a Reply to This Message ][Edit]


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Great weekly post Merrick...thanks -- toothy, 17:01:53 02/04/04 Wed [1] (209.240.205.63)

I agree with all that's been said.

I also liked the way Joss developed small part characters like the stoner girl. Who can ever forget Snyder's "gangs on crack" attitude.

I do have one problem with Joss and this ep has one of those moments.

Do you know what I'm talking about? If I said "sugar?", would you understand where I'm going.

Joss said early on that he wanted to change perceptions of the helpless blonde in the alley. Fine, he did that. Made a super hero out of the little girl. But I wish he had gone further. He continued to stereotype Buffy as the dumb blonde. He didn't have to make her a rocket scientist, and many times Buffy was the one to sus out the problem, but Joss took the easy way out by portaying as funny, a stupid Buffy. I remember the uproar when a "Barbie" doll, the girl's GiJoe, introduced a model which said when the string was pulled, "Math is Hard".

If Joss ever does another slayer series, I hope he leaves this sterotype in the perverbial vampire dust bin.

Sorry for that, rant over.

'School Hard' was BTVS at it's best

[ Post a Reply to This Message ][Edit]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Nice thread -- ARN - not so much to say, 17:19:45 02/04/04 Wed [1] (81.51.246.219)

thanks everyone. Was a nice thread I enjoyed reading it.

I like this episode very much, and I agree with the posters who pointed out the scheme "conformism versus anticonformism".

But for me the ultimate anti-conformist scene is not when Spike kills the Anointed one, because frankly, we all expected that someone would do that !!!

For me it's when Joyce hit Spike hard with an axe and Spike said something like : Women !!! Our sweet Joyce using an axe... that was amazing.

[ Post a Reply to This Message ][Edit]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> One of the defintive points of decline for the series. -- vampyr64, 17:28:03 02/04/04 Wed [1] (63.157.156.12)

You asked for our thoughts on the ep and so here they are. I admit, at the time I was rather fond of the episode. It didn't particularly stand out in any way for me, other then a pretty good Xander scene, but it fit well in the fabric of the show. However, looking back I can clearly see the seed of discord being planted in this episode. Spike. The introduction of the character altered the series, and not I feel for the better. This is of course a case of a seemingly harmless incident having dire consequences down the road.

The introduction of Spike himself was harmless, other then that some people believed he and the slayer shared some deep connection from the start. Whatever. The point is that because Spike was introduced the pandoras box was opened that eventually brought about the essential retcon of the entire Buffy universe. My biggest complain here is that certain people claim Spike was different, more human from the getgo and yet he needlessly murders a man that he feels is too old to feed on. That doesn't show an ounce of differen, IMO.

If you want to see a good example of how to show a character as different from the rest of his evil kin, I recommend reading R.A. Salvatore's 'The Dark Elf Trilogy'. Here you see a character who, from the moment he was born was shown to be different from the rest of his kind Setting up impassible barriers and then later destroying them with the use of the magical writers fiat is not a good way to tell a story.

JMHO.

[ Post a Reply to This Message ][Edit]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Which explains probably why the show has lasted -- Chani, 17:49:53 02/04/04 Wed [1] (212.198.0.93)

5 more years!

Replying for the pleasure of bashing a character is a thing I will never understand. It's sad for the board, for the show and for you.

[ Post a Reply to This Message ][Edit]

[> [> [> Re: Which explains probably why the show has lasted -- vampyr64, 17:59:09 02/04/04 Wed [1] (63.157.156.12)

I wasn't bashing the character. The author of the post asked for opinions of the ep, and I feel that the most important thing the episode did was introduce Spike.

Sadly, Spike is, like the other characters, a victim of the writers. You can't put all of the blame for what happened on his shoulders.

To be truthful, the show didn't truly start declining until season 4. And as good as the eps up till then are, when I watch them I feel rather like I'm watching the Titanic sail out of port on its maiden voyage. Impressive, even awe-inspiring. But ultimately doomed by the twisted machinations of its own creators.

As for why the show lasted so long; well its pretty much the same reason that reality tv shows are so popular whereas shows like Jake 2.0 are cancelled the first season. Simply put, people today aren't exactly the brightest candle on the wall.

[ Post a Reply to This Message ][Edit]

[> [> [> [> Wow, way to insult half the board -- RJA, 18:07:11 02/04/04 Wed [1] (195.93.33.13)

There are many reasons why Buffy lasted seven seasons (and could have lasted longer), but the audience and the fans being too stupid to recognise the inferior quality is not one of them.

Whatever problems you have with the show, the least you could do is respect those who like the show. Or at the very least the people you post among.

[ Post a Reply to This Message ][Edit]

[> [> [> [> [> Re: Wow, way to insult half the board -- vampyr64, 18:16:32 02/04/04 Wed [1] (63.157.156.12)

No insult intended. If you pay attention to my words you will see that I said 'people'. Individuals themselves tend to be at least decently intelligent. However, it is a proven fact that when you group them together the intelligence level drops.

As for my 'insulting' of the fans; it was directed more towards the cancelling of the show I mentioned then at the fans of Buffy. I was merely stating an oddity in the world of tv entertainment.

[ Post a Reply to This Message ][Edit]

[> [> [> [> [> [> Maybe it's the reverse on this board then -- RJA, 18:30:37 02/04/04 Wed [1] (195.93.33.13)

Since I always thought that the intelligent bunch here raised the game for each other :-)

I don't really understand your last point though, mainly due to the comparison between Buffy and reality shows. There are a glut of reality shows on primarily because many of them get high ratings. Buffy has never really had high ratings, so I didn't see too much of a comparison, and so any reason as to why they were on the air would be different IMO.

[ Post a Reply to This Message ][Edit]

[> [> [> [> [> [> Not a proven fact -- Eurydice, 18:35:09 02/04/04 Wed [1] (141.154.23.28)

The intelligence level of a group can only drop if some individuals within the group drag it down - i.e. they're stupid.

[ Post a Reply to This Message ][Edit]

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Sorry, but it is. -- vampyr64, 18:38:02 02/04/04 Wed [1] (63.157.156.12)

Several factors influence those in a group that would not occur with an individual. While the actual intelligence does not drop, the effect is the same.

[ Post a Reply to This Message ][Edit]

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> If you're talking about herd mentality, then that's different -- Eurydice, 19:00:25 02/04/04 Wed [1] (141.154.23.28)

That's a very different thing, you have to consider groups that are physically together (where peer pressure plays a huge role), then there are groups like television viewers, who are affected by different outside pressures like advertising.

And I don't get what you mean about the effect being the same as the drop in intelligence. Is the effect bad taste, questionable behavior, apathy? How can that be measured?

[ Post a Reply to This Message ][Edit]

[> [> [> [> It sounded like you were bashing this character -- Chani*off to bed*, 18:21:43 02/04/04 Wed [1] (212.198.0.93)

and what the posters have said above. Disagreeing is one thing but your statement wasn't an analysis of the episode, it was just your usual anti-Spike comments. In any case it's what I read. Spike doesn't exist outside the way he is written, it's just a character so I don't understand your Sadly, Spike is, like the other characters, a victim of the writers. You can't put all of the blame for what happened on his shoulders.

Frankly you can't seriously compared BTVS to Reality Shows, can you?

Do you hint that we aren't bright candles here because we think that a BTVS including Spike as a regular was a great show? Is this what you think of the BTVS fans?

I was disappointed by season 7, but I think that the three first seasons had worse episodes within than season 4-5-6. Season 4 is the best season IMO. It isn't about the characters or about the arcs but about the way every episode is written.

I really wonder why you've kept watching this show asince season 3 and posting here given to what you said above.

I didn't mean to start a fight or anything but a reply that is almost only negative tends to hurt me sometimes.

[ Post a Reply to This Message ][Edit]

[> [> [> [> [> Re: It sounded like you were bashing this character -- vampyr64, 18:35:00 02/04/04 Wed [1] (63.157.156.12)

When a character is well written it takes on a life of its own. At that point it is no longer merely the product of the writer, nor can he or she hold full claim over it. Characters must be written faithfully and true to their spirit. If Luke Skywalker had decided in ROTJ that he wanted to join his father and wipe out the rebellion people wouldn't simply say that 'he is as he is written'. It would have been completely against the character as he had been defined up until then.

Likewise a writers universe must be remained faithful to. One cannot simply rewrite clearly defined rules simply because the fancy strikes them. Thats called bad writing.

[ Post a Reply to This Message ][Edit]

[> [> [> [> [> [> You are the one thinking that -- Chani *not in bed yet*, 18:45:39 02/04/04 Wed [1] (212.198.0.93)

a character has been rewritten against what you called its "spirit"...I don't think so. Since we are speaking of Spike, I think that his character got more stuff later, and got deeper in season 5 he was too caricatural to have its own life in season 2, but he was basically the same character, a lover, a vampire who broke the rules, a show man...

[ Post a Reply to This Message ][Edit]

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: You are the one thinking that -- vampyr64, 18:52:41 02/04/04 Wed [1] (63.157.156.12)

As defined in the Buffyverse, Buffy is a hero. She is someone who slays the bad things, not one who becomes intimately involved with them. Angel can be somewhat explained if not excused, because he was a vampire with a soul. There can be no excuse for the second instance, newly risen or not. And certainly no excuse for what occured in season 7. You wouldn't have thought it keen if Buffy started sleeping with the master or Adam or the mayor, would you?

Also in this train of thought, as defined in the Buffyverse before retcon, souless vampires were evil. No exceptions. A vampire without a soul couldn't even hope to be good and wouldn't so much as care to try.

If Joss wanted to altar the canon convincingly, he should have introduced a vampire who was from the beginning unwilling to feed from humans, despite being souless. A character who from the start rejected the ways of his kind is a much better way to convince people of the change.

[ Post a Reply to This Message ][Edit]

[> [> This is kind of odd -- Eurydice, 18:06:41 02/04/04 Wed [1] (141.154.23.28)

You claim that the show declined because "some people" believed that Spike and Buffy had a connection from the start, and that "some people" claimed he was different - Which people are you talking about? Do you mean viewers, because they don't have much to do with the storyline. If you're talking about the writers, then that means this was an intentional part of the storyline, which I don't believe because Spike was slated to die at the end of the arc.

I'm not sure how Spike's introduction can have retconned the whole Buffyverse, considering that this was the 16th episode of a seven year series - there wasn't really a Buffyverse to retcon. But in any case, Spike and Drucilla were brought in as contrasts to Angel. The point was that Angelus was the worst of the worst, not that Spike and Dru were better than your average vampire. The writers were always very clear about how evil both of them were.

[ Post a Reply to This Message ][Edit]

[> [> Aw Heck, I just loved the 'doc martins' you know! -- Young at Heart, 20:31:54 02/04/04 Wed [1] (4.60.5.49)


Okay, that and the spiked blond hair, blue eyes and leather. Considering that Spike was supposed to go to a dusty bye bye at the end of 2 I have to think that the writers and audience saw some kind of future potential there for his character. Not necessarily a love interest for Buffy but some kind of foil for her? It was SMG who talked Joss into bringing JM back solo for the season 4 on. She's the one who said their characters had chemistry with each other so I don't see how the show turned for the worse in any way much less due to 'the audience'.

It was my understanding that Joss's words were something like 'No more vampire boyfriends for Buffy!' after Angel left so something in the character of Spike or the actors must have changed his mind?

Luv, YAH

[ Post a Reply to This Message ][Edit]

[> [> [> For that matter... -- Young at Heart, 20:33:27 02/04/04 Wed [1] (4.60.5.49)


I could be mistaken, but wasn't the show pretty much on the brink of cancellation for the first 2 or 3 seasons? I didn't watch it then, really, so I'm going by what I've read.

Luv, YAH

[ Post a Reply to This Message ][Edit]

[> [> Thanks for your thoughts....point in fact, I did ask what the board thought about the ep -- merrick981, 23:00:10 02/04/04 Wed [1] (205.188.209.46)

Vampyr64:

I find some of your thoughts really intriguing, and I see where you are coming from on several issues. You bring up a point that is rarely explored on the board, or fan sites throughout, because it "attacks" Spike's character in a sense. I don't believe you were necessarily "attacking" spike, no disrespect to those that do....its merely a case of interpretation. You definately have gone against the grain though, and like u said, its your opinion...exactly what i asked for. Personally, I agree with your summary of Spike. I believe that the writers "rewrote" his character in later seasons...i mean look at him now, he has a soul. The issue though, IMO, shouldn't be about "rewriting" a character. Granted, I don't thin kthe writers ever anticipated Spike to get a soul, his portrayl in "School Hard" demonstrates a path very different from the one he is on now. He doesn't come across as anything but an evil vampire that happens to do things his way and doesn't really care about who he pisses off or is hurt. Spike does however demonstrate some qualities that allow the writers to rewrite him....first, he demonstrates an affection that "most" vampires don't portray, the affection for Drusilla. He "loves" her, and it shows.

The bottome line, I think you are right to question the development of Spike, but I disagree with the fact you posed some "intelligence" questions. Because viewers accept certain "character developments," or don't accept them, doesn't identify intelligence, it merely identifies their perceptions of entertainment. I've questioned Spike and his role after S4, simply because I liked him better as an advesary, not a hero...just a personal view. He makes a great bad guy, but i also feel like his road of a villain has ended, and his new journey is that of a hero on the path of redemption. Thus, its a rewrite, but its justified.
I have never bought into the fact Spike was more human than other vampires, or anything like that...not for sure where that has been discussed (maybe here and i missed it), but regardless, Spike is different based on his personality as a vampire and his scars left from his mother and her torment prior to being killed. I have to think his story is different than most vampires, i mean many had killed their parents probably, but not after they had been sired.

Overall, I really like your thoughts, and thanks for sharing them. you brought another opinion that went against the grain, played devils advocate. Thats the point of this discussion.

[ Post a Reply to This Message ][Edit]

[> [> [> Re: Thanks for your thoughts....point in fact, I did ask what the board thought about the ep -- vampyr64, 02:24:52 02/05/04 Thu [1] (63.157.156.24)

Granted, I probably shouldn't have posted the somewhat insulting remarks. However, my intial post had nothing of the sort. It was only after I received a response that I felt was insluting, merely because my views weren't positive like everyone elses.

I agree that at this point Spike has gone too far to kill for his crimes, sadly. This is one of the reasons why I am unable to deal with the Buffyverse anymore. That and the fact that friends who were closer then family are now scattered to the four corners of the earth and away from each other for no real reason. It feels almost like Joss is punishing the characters for SMG's decision to not make a guest appearance.

Strangely enoough, I used to enjoy the character of Spike. Back in season 4 I counted him among my favorite characters. However, too much damage has been done since then for me to ever like him, or even tolerate him again.

JMHO.

[ Post a Reply to This Message ][Edit]


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> You feel so sad and angry ... -- ARN - honnest and polite, 18:00:36 02/04/04 Wed [1] (81.51.246.219)

why? Watching this show is so fun. If you don't like one character, just forget it and focus on the other ones. In your reply, you made 1 line about Xander and 20 lines about a character you dislike. I can't understand.

[ Post a Reply to This Message ][Edit]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Sorry this reply was for vampyr64... -- ARN - voy is so slow, 18:03:20 02/04/04 Wed [1] (81.51.246.219)


[ Post a Reply to This Message ][Edit]

[> [> Re: You feel so sad and angry ... -- vampyr64, 18:11:21 02/04/04 Wed [1] (63.157.156.12)

As I stated above, replies were supposed to be about our thoughts in the ep. I felt that the biggest thing introduced in the episode was Spike.

As for your other question, your right, the show was fun at one time. However even when I watch the old episodes and see how good they were, I am reminded even more of how far a fall is looming ahead. I find myself increasingly angry at Buffy and her words. To this day I cannot understand why Buffy reacted harshly to Xander's stating that only dead guys could make time with her. It proved to be true. No one will explain it to me and I'm afraid even if they did I wouldn't understand. It's this and other events, which proved to be but symptoms of a much larger problem, which make it difficult for me to watch even the early episodes. Knowing that its all downhill from there really take the fun out of things.

The reason I stay and post here is because I enjoy posting here. I wasn't aware that posts had to be nothing but glaring admiration and praise.

[ Post a Reply to This Message ][Edit]

[> [> [> I'll give one explanation -- Eurydice, 18:31:41 02/04/04 Wed [1] (141.154.23.28)

At the time he said it, it was out of jealousy and why *he* couldn't make time with her. And acting harshly is something Buffy did whenever anybody told her something she didn't want to hear, not just Xander.

I don't know that it was entirely true that only dead guys could make time with her - her relationship with Riley was longer and more complete than with Angel or Spike - but two vamps, you gotta wonder. I guess we'll know for sure if she hooks up with a third vamp in Rome. :-)

[ Post a Reply to This Message ][Edit]

[> [> [> [> Re: I'll give one explanation -- vampyr64, 18:41:48 02/04/04 Wed [1] (63.157.156.12)

Does it really make his words inappropriate simply because of the motivation? Whether because of jealousy or not, he was stating the truth.

Buffy was under no obligation as a friend or otherwise to go out with him. However, likewise Xander was in no obligation to make Buffy feel good about her decision.

I thankyou though for being the only person to even bother giving an explanation.

[ Post a Reply to This Message ][Edit]

[> [> [> [> [> Not at all -- Eurydice, 18:51:29 02/04/04 Wed [1] (141.154.23.28)

I wasn't talking about the appropriateness of Xander's remark or anybody's obligation - you were asking why Buffy's reaction to it was so harsh. I think Buffy doesn't like to be made to face her decisions and that she discounted his opinion because of his motivation.

[ Post a Reply to This Message ][Edit]

[> [> [> Re: You feel so sad and angry ... -- ARN -, 18:34:20 02/04/04 Wed [1] (81.51.246.219)

**I wasn't aware that posts had to be nothing but glaring admiration and praise.**

Depends on you.
I prefer to focus on the things I like in this show. It's my way of mind. And when I expose on this board my point of view about things I don't like, I expose it carefully because this is a public place.

[ Post a Reply to This Message ][Edit]


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: Retro Buffy Discussion: "School Hard"....topic : Spike, Life, and Juggling -- Rosalind, 19:15:32 02/04/04 Wed [1] (142.173.61.226)

I first started watching BtVS half way through season 2 and School Hard was one of the episodes I kept missing in reruns. I didn't actually first see it until half way through season 6 so the Buffy/Spike affair was well underway. But upon watching it I completely got how the character of Spike survived. There is so much in the character and he seems to be completely open-ended. He is sexually attracted to Buffy; his watching her in the Bronze makes that obvious even though for so much of the time he is in deep shadow. He is evil; he snaps the neck of one of the parents and toasts the Chosen One without a single qualm. He is impulsive; anti-authoritarian; romantic, a bit(well a lot) of a braggart. He respects strong women. In every scene a different facet of his character is revealed in a way that makes the viewer say not "too much" but "I want to see more." And JM was obviously giving it all he's got and, as a really good actor who is having fun and going for broke, that is a lot.

I know that the character was supposed to die sometime during the season but it is hard to imagine how long ME would have kept to that plan. I can imagine that a writer would love to write for a character like Spike because he can be anything you want him to be.

[ Post a Reply to This Message ][Edit]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> "No Spike, its gonna hurt a lot" -- Xane- AFter S6, that line always makes me wince, 02:03:11 02/05/04 Thu [1] (172.171.194.243)

[ Next Thread | Previous Thread | Next Message | Previous Message ]

Forum timezone: GMT-8
VF Version: 3.00b, ConfDB:
Before posting please read our privacy policy.
VoyForums(tm) is a Free Service from Voyager Info-Systems.
Copyright © 1998-2019 Voyager Info-Systems. All Rights Reserved.