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Date Posted: 01:17:24 09/15/02 Sun
Author: Ray
Subject: Re: The Noahide system of law
In reply to: QUITTNER 's message, "The Noahide system of law" on 11:38:00 09/10/02 Tue

>Ray, you wrote, in part: >>> The so called Noahide
>system of law did not appear for several hundred years
>after the time of Christ in one of the volumes that
>comprise the Talmud. <<<
>..... According to The World Christian Encyclopedia
>(2001) there are (were?) 33,820 distinct Christian
>denominations across the world, and one more or less
>is probably not important.

The Noahide Movement is not at all a Christian Denomination.
It doesn't even claim to be. It is a movement among certain Jewish Cabalist Sects, notably the Lubavitchers, to convince Christians to abandon Christ.

The basic doctrine is that God gave the Noahide Laws to Adam and Noah and they applied to all mankind, but then the world forgot them. Moses gave the Mosaic Law to the Children of Israel and then (remember this is all from the Talmud)Moses reaffirmed the Noahide Laws for gentiles.

The laws themselves are nothing. The criminal points (murder, theft, sexual misconduct etc) are covered not only in the Mosaic Law but also in every other code of Law on earth.

What is important is the religious restrictions against idolatry and blasphemy. While I agree that idolatry and blasphemy are sins, the Noahide Laws proclaims them to be capital offenses. And the judges of a Noahide court are not Christian, they are subject to Talmudic authority. The Talmud clearly defines Christianity, (the teaching that Christ is the son of God) as blasphemy and idolatry.

I don't know if you visited the sites I mentioned but they don't even hesitate to declare their intention to outlaw Christianity and to execute those who refuse to submit.

If they were just a fringe group of society I would pay them no mind at all but they are the largest and most influential of the orthodox hassidic cults. They have powerful lobbies under their control and they wield a tremendous amount of wealth and power. They have already succeeded in having the US government endorse the Noahide Laws. For now it is mostly just in writing. But there is a new Judicial program in the US called Justice 2020 that has been adopted by many states. It gives far reaching powers to judges to dispense with due process and to more or less become judge and jury.

I cannot convince anyone, you have to research for yourself and make your own decision. But be aware that something very sinister is going on behind the scenes.


What is important, however,
>is to what extent the members of a given denomination
>(version) adhere to the teachings of Jesus. Why did
>you single out just one of these versions to oppose,
>yet ignored the many others?

As I said the Noahide Movement is not a Christian group nor does it claim to be.

>I can understand that
>Paul, in his efforts to produce a "universal=catholic"
>religion wanted to make it much easier for non-Jews to
>join his new religion by discarding many of the
>requirements, including (some? many? all?) moral ones,
>of the Judaism of his days.

Here you need to look at the Bible. The passage that Noahides point to in the New Testament to pretend that the early Christians promoted legalism is not by Paul it is quoting the decision of the Jerusalem Council and yes I agree with you it was meant to discard many requirements of the Mosaic Law for Christians. It does not mention Noah nor the so called Noahide Laws.
The Noahides use this passage to say essentially that Paul and the early Christians blew it by later preaching salvation by grace. They say that the original intent of Christ and the Church was to set up a 2 people of God legalist system. The Jews keeping the Mosaic Law as the principal people of God and the Gentiles keeping the Noahide Laws (under the direction of the Rabbis) as the second people of God.
To the Noahide promoters there is no salvation in Christ.
Salvation comes from adhering to the Noahide Laws and submitting to rabbinical authority.



>..... As I understand it, the Talmud is just a record
>of discussions and pronouncements of Jewish clergy,
>and includes the up to then unwritten oral law, based
>on the Pentateuch (the 5 books of Moses, a part of the
>collection of many books selected by a committee,
>known as the bible).

I don't know the depth of your understanding of the Talmud.
If you are sincere, it is apparent that you know very little about it. If you are insincere, that is the whole problem in itself.

The "unwritten oral law" (the Mishnah) is what Christ condemned as the traditions of men that nullify the word of God.

The Talmud openly states that it is the duty of Jews to kill all gentiles. The Talmud openly states that Jesus was a blasphemer and was duly executed. The Talmud states that when the Messiah comes it will be to wipe out all nations except Israel especially Christian. This list could go on and on.

>It is very likely that they discussed the split between >the Jewish Christians and the non-Jewish Christians, and >to what extent these groups helped or oppposed the Romans; >by the time the various tractates of the Talmud were >written that split had been in effect for very many years.
>

Opposing the Romans was a dead issue long before the Talmud was written. There is no discussion of Jewish vs Non Jewish Christians in the Talmud. All Christians are considered Minim (blasphemers).

The Noahide system is as far from Christianity as
night is from day.

>.. But so are many of the many other current denominations/versions of Christianity.

I can agree on that point, and some of those denominations have already embraced the Noahide Movement as a compromise between Christianity and Judaism.

If you think that's a good idea and you fancy a religion that insists you deny the divinity of Christ and that you accept rabbinical authority over your religion and that you base your salvation on the keeping of a few little legalistic laws instead of the blood of Jesus shed for the remission of sins, then far be it from me to discourage you. Go for it. Best of luck.

As for me and my house we'll stick with Jesus.

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