Re: Thanksgiving Thoughts -- NYLF DISCUSSION

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Date Posted: 19:39:05 01/24/01 Wed
Author: josh*
Subject: Re: Thanksgiving Thoughts
In reply to: CLaire 's message, "Re: Thanksgiving Thoughts" on 15:51:06 01/23/01 Tue

Claire,

First off let me tell you that I will not be much of an argument for evoloution past a certain point. I don't have any knowledge of the things you are talking about. I will research it and study it and then I will be able to respond to your evo. statements. Let me respond to your "religion" statements. I appreciate all that you said about me. It makes me realize that what I am living for is working. That Christ is present in my life and that he is working and visible. As far as your idealogies of your religion it seems as though you don't want to connect to a certain religion or faith because you want to be your own person. You feelings of not believing in absolute truth are completely thrown out the window because believing ABSOLUTELY that there is not absolute truth is an absolute statement. Thus throwing that out. I am not being condescending. I am just telling you the truth. Going for the no hell bit. If you believe in a heaven, doesn't there have to be a hell? You can almost relate it to science and newtons law. For every reaction there has to be an equal and opposite reaction. You can relate it to good and evil. Whenever there is good there is the lack of good which is evil. Whenever there is cold, there is the lack of cold, which is hot. See there has to be an opposite end of the spectrum. As far as your belief in a god that does destruction for personal punishments. That is not my God. That is not what he does. Yes, that is what happened in the Old Testament. But with the New Testament the game has changed. You must realize that. Also, your remark on you can do it on your own without Christ. I didn't say you couldn't do it without Christ. I challenged you purely to try it on your own. Then I proceeded to say that Christ will always be there. I know that I am probably being a jerk. But I really don't want my words twisted. So.... The thing is. If you want. I can tell you my story about Christ. I can tell you my testimony, and some really cool things. My phone number is above, and you are always welcome to call me and discuss it with me. I would rather talk to you anyways. Your life means a lot to me and if you want I will pay for the call. So talk to you later. Peace. God Bless.
Josh*

>Josh!
>My extreme and full apologies for waiting two months
>to respond to your last letter. Like you, I thought
>over your statements and questions over and over, and
>am still not really sure what to make of everything we
>have discussed. What brings me to respond is that we
>are starting the chapters on evolution in my biology
>class, and one of my classmates is a Creationist and
>also one of my good friends, and we got to discussing
>it all. He had read a lot on the evidence against
>evolution and gave me some things to read, and I have
>done my own limited web search on evolution and
>arguments against it. But before I get into that, let
>me address the religious side of things.
> I have complete and utter respect for your faith
>and your pride in your Christianity. I think it is
>admirable to be so sure of your beliefs at our ge, and
>I think you are being a fantastic role model for young
>and even older Christians. You have caused me to
>really think about my religion, and as it comes up a
>lot at school with kids of all different religions
>around me, I have come to some conclusions. First of
>all, I do believe in God, or some supernatural power.
>I do think I believe in heaven as a place where a
>person's mind and soul go after death, although that
>is not necessarily a religious belief. I do not
>believe in hell. To me it seems irrational to say that
>due to a person's actions on earth, he or she will
>therefore be eternally punished after death. In the
>same way, the god I believe in is a gracious and
>forgiving god much like the one you may know or which
>is described in parts of the Bible. But mine is not a
>god who hates people for who they are, for what they
>do, or who punishes people on earth by causing certain
>things, i.e. death or natural destruction or anything
>like that. I am not sure about a Messiah. Although you
>say I may not be able to survive without Christ,
>because I do not see him as a saviour of the human
>race, I will say that I can survive. Now I certainly
>don't want to offend you by saying that. It is just
>what I feel inside as right. Perhaps it is true that I
>can't survive without God because something gets
>people through the hardest parts of their lives, but I
>personally don't think it is the will of a Messiah. I
>realy want you to realize, though, that I think this
>is true only for me and for whoever else believes it.
>Unlike yourself, I do not think I believe in absolute
>truth, but that each person creates in his own mind a
>perfect universe in which he shall live and thrive.
>For me, I survive in my own loving/forgiving-god
>universe where I make my own choices and help myself
>through hard times, while I still believe that the
>Hindus in India live in their universe of hundreds of
>thousands of gods, because that is what is perfect for
>them. Everyone on earth, accept maybe the atheist
>(although I think he, too, wants happiness and peace)
>are searching for heaven. Each religion to me seems to
>have a different form and name for the deity that,
>when the realize him or it, will bring them to heaven
>or nirvana, etc. I feel comfortable saying that, and
>you are welcome to give me feedback on that.
> Regarding the ideas on evolution... I have to say
>that there are, as many "creation scientists" and
>creationists say, certain flaws in the nature of the
>universe and evolution. It is a theory, but in
>science, "theory" is the word which is closest to fact
>and to tell you the truth, like you mentioned,
>everything is relative so theories are perhaps all we
>have, and no facts. On the other hand, reading some of
>the statements against evolution that are supposed to
>be from learned scientists are sort of ridiculous, but
>I think that is because they see things differently
>than I do. I have found that I have an extreme amount
>of bias going into the reading, and even if I try and
>disregard it, a lot of things sound plain ridiculous
>to me, although not all of it. For example: the
>general claim against evolution is about
>macro-evolution, and not micro-evolution. To me, I see
>those as the same thing in different time frames. I
>see micro-evolution and the differences between 2
>members of a species, or between 2 very similar kinds
>of species, and micro-evolution is proven. But I also
>see the similarities and differences between fairly
>far apart members of animal families or ancestors to
>modern animal families, and to me that is the same
>exact principal of evolution on a bigger scale of
>time. The same processes were taking place, but over
>millions of years instead of thousands, or whatever. I
>tried to explain my view of evolution regarding these
>2 things to my creationist friend, and he kept saying
>but that's not proof, etc. I think it is kind of
>interesting how religious people are always wanting to
>find truth, but at the same time, it seems to me that
>a truly religious person believes in his religion by
>faith, not by proof.
>These so called "creation scientists" have a funny way
>of describing themselves, because science refers to a
>creatin set of laws or provable facts which don't seem
>necessary for a person to believe in Christianity, or
>whatever religion. And anyway, if they are looking at
>proof, such as the fossils used in looking at the
>Flood as historically accurate, how can they still
>believe that the earth was created in 6 24-hour days?
>That man was created at the same time as plants and
>animals?? I know you mentioned the longer (much
>longer) day theory, but I am just speaking of the
>Biblical Creationists who take the 6-day thing very
>literally (according to my source, here.)
>Ok I really have to go, because I am late for
>something, but I will probably think of more to say
>soon, and with more reading and discovering. Please
>write back when you get a chance, and eralize these
>are jsut my opinions.
>--Claire
>
>
>
>>Claire,
>>
>>How is it going. I guess after this long break I will
>>finally answer or respond to your comment/question.
>>YOu don't want to know how many times I have read your
>>comments. I have been thinking hard and I am prepared
>>to respond to them now. So here we go.
>>
>>First, I believe I am a follower of Christ. Which by
>>definition makes me a Christian. I don't seperate
>>myself from the religion of Christianity just the
>>people that call themselves Christians, the
>>ideaoligies that people, not God have presented, and
>>of course the Church. I agree with your cop-out ideas,
>>but I have to remind you that Christianity is a
>>crutch. Sure, you will go, huh? Yeah it is a crutch,
>>but not something that should be abused. See my
>>crutch is something that I lean on constantly. I have
>>since the day I became a Christian and will until the
>>day I die. I cannot and will not do things on my own.
>>I won't succeed. Plain and simple. Although people out
>>there are using Christ, and you know what? I don't
>>think that Christ is all that upset about it. I think
>>that he wants people to come to him, and each time
>>they come to him they learn a little more about him
>>and eventually these people turn to Jesus
>>wholeheartedly. I am one of those people. I honestly
>>can say that I have turned wholeheartedly(sp) to Jesus
>>Christ. Now, that does not mean that I am perfect. By
>>no means. What I am saying is that I am willing to
>>give my life to Christ for his purposes and his will.
>>In fact, I have given my life to Christ. Not just my
>>acceptance or my act of receiving him, but I have made
>>my life His. I don't expect you to fully understand
>>that, but I hope that it makes slight sense. Alright.
>>To the issues at hand. Your comment on Eastern
>>Religions and Western Religions being similar is in my
>>mind not true at all. Why? I see mine as being
>>absolute truth. I have that right to believe it.
>>However, I do agree with your statement that people
>>make the differences in differences in religion. Yes
>>they do. I totally agree with you. I do not look at
>>you as a bad person for not believing in what I
>>believe in. However I grieve for you in my heart
>>because you do not know what I know, you do not feel
>>what I feel, and you probably don't see the world as I
>>see it. You regarded we humans as being similar
>>because we are the same species. I regard myself as
>>being similar to you because we have the same
>>opportunity. Christ died for us offering the
>>opportunity for us to have salvation. Now, I am not
>>one to shove this down your throat and make you
>>believe this. SOme people are like this and I am not
>>even close. Why? Because Christ represents freedom. He
>>represents choice. I had the choice to believe in him.
>>I had the choice to make the decision I made, and I
>>most certainly had the choice to trust my life soul,
>>mind, body, spirit, etc with him. Do you see what I am
>>saying here? This is for everyone. Your comment on not
>>believing because you feel you can do it on your own.
>>I want to challenge and most people wouldn't do this.
>>Or at least Christians. Go ahead try it on your own.
>>Try to do things on your own. I am telling you without
>>a doubt in my mind or anywhere else that you can't.
>>Experiment with it. Christ will always be there when
>>you fall. Now that is a little harsh I know, but if I
>>didn't say it than I wouldn't be doing my duty as a
>>Christian. Your comment on "the Bible told me so," and
>>how people entrust their lives to a deity or a book.
>>Yeah, I am a victim of that too. Why? Because my
>>saviour is my guider and his instruction booklet is
>>the Bible. Now when people do dumb stuff and then say,
>>"God/Bible told me to." That is ridiculous. Actually
>>that is downright retarted. There is no excuse for
>>that. I think that is where a majority of your
>>disliking for that phrase comes from.
>>
>>Now, the idealogies that you expressed below are
>>different then mine. See take the beginning of your
>>paragraph and replace the theory of evoloution with
>>God. That is how I believe. Do you know what the
>>difference between you and me is? You can't put your
>>faith that things were created in a singular God and I
>>can't put it in man. That simple. There is no middle
>>road I believe. Either you are or your aren't. I don't
>>like these middle of the road standby people who wait
>>on someone to tell them something or for someone to
>>prove something to them. Get out on your own and
>>discover something for your self. Now that kind of
>>contradicts my possible future plans as I am looking
>>into the field of ministry. For dinosaurs I am very
>>questionable. I agree with you about people burying
>>them and people inventing them and so on, but I just
>>don't know. I don't know if I can trust in a scientist
>>to tell me that the earth has been around for however
>>long. Evoloution to me is not a fact. It will always
>>remain a theory to me. What I want people to realize
>>is I am not saying that evoloution is not true. It
>>might be. What I want you to realize is that I believe
>>it is a theory. See, if you really look at the world
>>everything is a theory. Christianity is a theory. I
>>just happen to believe in it. Just as people believe
>>in other things. See, my reasoning for everything
>>being a theory is this. You are looking at this screen
>>right now and you see that the background is black,
>>the writing is black and the place where you type is
>>white. Why can't I call all of the poop? Huh. Because
>>someone told us to call it that. Colors are theory.
>>Why? No one as proved that yellow is yellow. Yellow is
>>not a fact. Everyone has a system of beliefs. We all
>>have different ones. I just choose not to believe what
>>others believe. I guarantee you that some Christians
>>who read this will be ticked off and be angry with me.
>>Go ahead it is your right to be mad. Just as it is my
>>right to write this stuff. Some of you will think I am
>>a lunatic. I'm not. I just believe what I believe. Now
>>that I am off on a tangent I will come back. The
>>theory of evoloution is not fact to me because the man
>>who thought of it denied it. I do not believe it is
>>fact because God has not mentioned it in the Bible. He
>>makes no reference to it, and I don't believe it could
>>of happened. You said that I mentioned the 6 days in
>>the beginning being longer than actual days we
>>believe. They very well may have been. The truth of
>>the mattter is we don't know how long those days were
>>because we don't have a calendar back then. The Romans
>>set the calendar that we are now familar with. Days
>>could have been years and years could have been
>>centuries and centuries could have been milleniums. To
>>make it clear. I don't know. Your statement of if we
>>can't believe the first story in the Bible and take it
>>litereally then how can we take the rest of it that
>>way. I don't believe the beginning of the Bible has
>>anything to do with actually days but the litereal
>>fact that God created this earth and then he created
>>man. Which I take litereally. I think that about puts
>>me at the end of this response. Sorry it is long. Hope
>>it was interesting to hear my beliefs. I still have
>>more. Let me leave people with one question. Where
>>would you go if you were to die today? What would
>>happen to your sould/spirit (whatever you choose to
>>call it)? If you want to receive the gift that Christ
>>has given freely than write me back or call me. I
>>really would love to show you what I have found. It is
>>amazing. It is the coolest thing I have ever felt,
>>seen, and heard in my entire existence. Thanks for
>>being open minded. Peace. God Bless.
>>Josh*
>>(843)884-8222
>
>>> > > --Claire

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