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| Subject: Personally... | |
Author: Ed Harris (London) | [ Next Thread |
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] Date Posted: 14:26:06 01/06/05 Thu In reply to: Ian (Australia) 's message, "a language is more like a work of art than a tool" on 14:12:50 01/06/05 Thu I would get rid of both the Beatles and Coldplay. I've never heard of the latter but I'm sure that he, she, or they are terrible. I have ambivalent feelings towards language as an art. On the one hand, I think that language is a medium for expressing art, in the form of literature, and that the same idea can be expressed in all languages. On the other hand, some languages are better at expressing certain ideas than others, which is where I would agree with you that we shouldn't get rid of them. The problem is further complicated, however, by English, which is an odd creature, the linguistic camel, which is generally better for expressing most ideas than any other language, which is why we have the greatest literary tradition in history. This is an irony, of course, because, to quote a great old man, "from the railleries of the Romans on the barbarity and misery of our island, one can not help reflecting on the fate and revolution of kingdoms: how Rome, once the mistress of the world, seat of the arts, empire and glory, now lies sunk in sloth, ignorance and poverty... while this remote country, anciently the jest and contempt of the polite Romans, is become the happy seat of liberty, plenty and letters, flourishing in all the refinements of civil life." I am inclined to think that our achievements in this field should not be allowed to decay because of sentimental nostalgia for Celtic languages. Our children should have a facility with English, or we're all in trouble; and if they want to learn foreign languages out of intellectual interest, as you and I have done, then that is up to them to decide individually. [ Next Thread | Previous Thread | Next Message | Previous Message ] |
| [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: I do see language as a tool... | |
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Author: Dave (UK) [ Edit | View ] |
Date Posted: 14:42:01 01/06/05 Thu It's a tool of communication between humans. I don't think the cathedral analogy is appropriate, as these buildings still serve a purpose. The concept of obsolescence means that something stays around until it is replaced by something better. In my view, the mediaeval cathedrals have yet to be bettered. Similarly, using Coldplay to replace the Beatles is not a fair analogy, as they are both performers of modern English-language music. Obsolescence in this sphere is more akin to the move from old diatonic scales to the modern scales found in current western music. I see language on the other hand as more natural, and in keeping with Darwinism with the way languages evolve and become extinct. [ Post a Reply to This Message ] |
| [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: the problem with that... | |
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Author: Ian (Australia) [ Edit | View ] |
Date Posted: 22:45:42 01/06/05 Thu The problem with seeing language as a tool is that the "tool" is inseparable from the product. It is impossible to separate a language from the things created in that language: let a language die, and you let all its products die. Simple as that. Anyone who has ever worked with translation knows how much is lost in the process. Your extinction analogy is a good one: neither species nor languages become obsolete, they are merely pressured out of existence. The idea of one species being "better" than another simply won't wash. I don't think we should be sitting by sipping our gin and tonics as species go extinct, because once they are gone they are really gone and more variety is always more interesting. Languages are the same. English may be better equipped than Welsh to talk about the latest mobile phone technology, but it will never be anywhere near as good for expressing Welsh poetry. [ Post a Reply to This Message ] |
| [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Fair Enough... | |
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Author: Dave (UK) [ Edit | View ] |
Date Posted: 23:02:22 01/06/05 Thu I am not a translator, so thanks for your insight into a topic in terms a Software Engineer can understand. The thing is, with my profession, most of the “languages” I deal with daily are programming languages. There are more similarities with written language than you probably think. In this field, languages evolve in similar ways and borrow from each other. However, when a language is replaced with something newer and invariably better, I am usually glad to see the back of the old language. Maybe languages can be seen to be a specific tool for a specific job, with certain languages more appropriate for explaining the ideals of certain cultures than others. [ Post a Reply to This Message ] |
| [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: ambiguity | |
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Author: Ian (Australia) [ Edit | View ] |
Date Posted: 00:11:27 01/07/05 Fri Since one of the functions of human language is to permit ambiguity, and hence humour and poetry, and one of the functions of computer languages is to exclude that possibility, I would say that the use of the term "language" for machine codes is a convenient metaphor at best. The two are far from being the same thing. A programming "language" is certainly a tool for a specific purpose. A real, human language does not have any such limited purpose: we live in our languages the way fish live in rivers. [ Post a Reply to This Message ] |
| [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: well | |
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Author: Dave (UK) [ Edit | View ] |
Date Posted: 09:38:01 01/07/05 Fri It is certainly possible to have logical ambiguity in programming languages. [ Post a Reply to This Message ] |