Subject:  “to beat a phosphorized camel" or "I, Proteus!" |
Author:
tjm
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Date Posted: 01/16/06 9:47:25pm
In reply to:
pa
's message, "since we're talking about christ..." on 01/16/06 6:43:31pm
for the record: i was never a proponent of the war. i always maintained that if our govt decided to do it, i would support it because it’s either now or later.
2100 USA deaths today or 21,000 in five years when it gets worse. i am of the belief, and i can assert with confidence that the majority of world leaders agree with me when i say that the USA is the only country with the resources, the courage and the determination to deal with the evil and the insanity in the world. what did Europe do while the blood of genocide was leaking under its backdoor from the Balkans? it’s disgusting. they did and would have done nothing. the list is endless and i for one grow impatient with the yammering about US empire building and blood for oil and things of this nature. there’s no proof of any of that and to be honest, in some ways we’re gullible to offer so much to the world with getting so little in return but hey...that’s how we are. i would be happy to debate that topic.
i always say the world can be an insane place with some very bad people in it that want to kill others and unfortunately at times that insanity must be met with the same lethal force. i am not a war monger. war frightens me and makes me cry. but i am not one to concede my dignity to the pressures from the insane or strangely fundamental.
pjk: your “bush is stupid” “bush is a dictator” “neo con-artists” “bush can’t pronounce words” rant is thin soup and to me comes across as a disguise and an excuse. it’s an easy identity that doesn’t do your true essence justice and doesn’t even scratch the surface of healing. it antagonizes and avoids a true examination of the issues. it’s emotion and it scores points when heard at a party or through a megaphone at a rally but what does it solve?
“george washington sucked! he had no natural teeth!”
“jefferson slept with his slave!”
“Lincoln had a foot fetish!”
“Roosevelt was a momma’s boy!”
i’m not as good as you at snide remarks based on historical fact. you could do better. i don’t know the facts off-hand. pardon my weak attempts.
but i’m saying i’m not so offended by the pessimism as i am by your [sometimes] attitude towards your fellow man on the voy. that’s how i see it. i’m angry about it. i was not intending my intervention to convert your political views but rather to convert you, to encourage fewer bouts and barbs of arrogance and antagonism.
your caricaturization of those of us here on the voy as pollyannawannabemorons is so insulting it makes me want to say mean things and i believe it does prove that you can become blinded by your anger. an anger that runs deeper than any of us are involved with relating to you personally. so i don’t understand it.
you seem to want our conflict to be about politics and ecology and wars. to me it’s about interpersonal relationships. plain and simple. in your view, perhaps we’re all gullible disneyfied morons with college degrees. perhaps you thrive on the forum because it offers you a percieved foil. i don’t know.
anyway::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::;;
i am not qualified to give anything close to a comprehensive pro’s and con’s/ hopes and fears list of the last 4 years in iraq but i imagine that if you felt like it was a good thing, you could find reasons to even now support it and if you were against it you could find equal number of things wrong with it but pjk’s comment
“to beat a phosphorized camel, some of my fears prior to going into iraq have unfortunately materialized while most of your hopes have not - so goes the road of good intentions.”
is too sarcastic, antagonistic and simply wrong to go unchallenged so here is a list of a few things that have happened since we went there. it’s pretty thin and i know i will want to add to it when i have time to think about more but here’s a few things. feel free to go after it with a red pen. all’s fair in love and politics:
Libya gives up WMD? yes
Israel out of Gaza? yes
Syria out of Lebanon? yes
Egypt holds first elections since 1952? yes
Saudi Arabia Elections? yes
Chirac loses EU referendum and every election his party supports and immigrants riot as in a redux of the 1962 debacle where the siene flowed red with blood [you don’t read abt that in french history books] some reward for supporting saddam’s regime in the end
governments in australia, denmark and britain given new terms after supporting iraq efforts...goes against predictions of demise
global economy shows incredible 3.4% growth in 2005 with india, japan and china doing very well [twice the world growth rate] as needed for stable global growth? yes
civil war in iraq after 4 years? no
noam chomsky’s prediction: 6 million afghans will die as the result of their liberation from the taliban? no
backlash against american products worldwide? no , actually sales are up for so-called ‘american identity’ products
backlash against america’s foreign policies and endeavors abroad? yes, with vocal chords mostly but not with any serious collaborative effort among nations to stymie the efforts of american business, military and the like. why is that? we know why: they like what we offer the world in terms of prosperity and peace and are happy to have us around to provide and pay for it. [another post]
11 million Iraqis vote in elections? yes
refugees flooding jordan and kuwait? no
burning oilfields and mass devastation ecologically? no
thousands US wardeaths just to capture bahgdad and thousands more to follow in the first months? no 2100+ tragedies plus wounded in 4 years
terror attacks on US soil since 9/11? no
democracy seedlings planted in iraq? yes
200 political groups replace a ONE party system in iraq? yes
18,000 small and medium business registered in iraq to replace the stalinist style economy? yes
agriculture provides the bulk of iraqi food after decades of mismanaged and dead soviet style farming? yes
baathists out as regime of terror? yes
it’s not perfect and there is a Fears-realized column of course. but for what it’s worth.
-tjm
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