| Subject: My Last Post on This Subject Donald |
Author:
Vince
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Date Posted: 07:54:30 06/08/04 Tue
In reply to:
Donald
's message, "Re: You Need to Read This Donald..." on 05:49:39 06/08/04 Tue
O.K. Donald, let me put this one to bed once and for all.
This discussion was instigated by you on the subject of an academics view of the Harry Potter phenomena. No problem with that.
When I expressed some anger at being reminded at some of the damage some of these academics do (not YOU remember but THEY – big difference), by calling referring to them as academics who sit in their ivory towers pontificating, while the real damage is being done to young people on a ground level, YOU then launched into an unprovoked attack against me. When I saw how much you had taken my ivory towers phrase so personally (again, this was not even aimed at you!!!??? Are these academics your relations or something?) I offered up an apology regardless. Despite all this, I have still had no apology from you for this either. Maybe calling me “Dear Vince” is an attempt at an apology now. If so, why not just drop your pride and apologise?
As I said, it was YOU who ‘initiated’ a personal attack against me at the beginning. This is the first personal remark that has been made in this entire discussion. It is from you, and the rest of the post contains the remainder of the personal remarks. You instigated this to start with Donald. Please try and see this and be big enough to admit it:
Donald said: “Hi Vince,
I was hoping for an intelligent response to this man's argument - some hope.”
So you immediately start the personal remarks by implying that I am not intelligent in my response. Thanks Donald. It may not be a response as you had wanted but it was a response nevertheless. More importantly, it was not even personally aimed against you! Even so, from this moment on your posts took on a personal attack against me. Next you said in the same post:
Donald: “Essentially his argument has nothing to do with your apologetic agenda and I find it astonishing that you would dismiss his view so out of hand. You have not even read the article. Then again you have probably not read Harry Potter either, whereas the author of the article had. I must admit I have only read the first book, but I guess that is still more than you. But this should come as no surprise to me, after all your whole web site is a collection of other people's opinions on various books and subjects; an assortment of quotes from books you have never read.”
Had I said anything like this to you in the opening of this discussion Donald? No. Did I break confidence with revealing personal phone calls? No. Yet, later on, you have the cheek to cry persecution when I seek to defend myself against these personal attacks on my own forum! You have got some front Donald. I will give you that.
What is even more incredible is that you now (in your last post here) continue to reveal more of our private phone conversations by saying in your most recent post:
“Just a few weeks ago you informed me that if I dared write a response to articles on your web site you would use all my personal emails as amunition against me (with your permission I would gladly quote what you said). Yet now you are making all this fuss just because I let one little detail slip which you had admitted to me by email as well as by phone.”
So not only do I fail to get an apology, but you continue to break confidence by revealing even more private phone conversations. You don’t quote me word for word (but have offered to do so. Did you have a tape recorder running or something?! I am left to wonder) but you paraphrase me here anyway, and give everyone the sense of the conversation regardless. Again, thanks Donald! Then, if all this isn’t bad enough, you contradict yourself and have the cheek to self righteously declare yourself as one who does not make details public!:
Donald: “ But, unlike you, I have no interest in making all those details public.”
You then say:
Donald: “You are looking for a fight, but I am not going to give you one. You have treated me terribly over the past few months, as your pre-emptive strike was intended to counter.”
!!!!!! You really do amaze me Donald. You seek to set up a website that criticizes mine, expect me to do nothing about it, but when I do, you quickly take it down, even though you have said here, in this discussion, over the last few days, that you have “nothing to hide”! Then you come on here under the guise of having a discussion about Harry Potter, but then use it as a cloak to take personal shots at me. And you wonder why I am angry!? Well I have news for you Donald. I do get angry from time to time. So did Jesus when He was faced with similar individuals from the religious leaders of His time.
You say you stand by the things you said under ROTW? You know that most of the things said under that name were from you and I am glad you feel you can admit that much at least. But even this has been offered up under duress if you will remember. When various individuals did some detective word around the ISP, some of the clues you gave, and the style of writing, you had to come clean.
In all this Donald, no one would have any problem with you having views that differ from the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society. What people have a problem with is the fact that you seem to set yourself up as a model JW, while at the same time dismissing others who no longer believe as the Watchtower does as “apostates” (even though you have admitted that you are happy to apply that word to yourself under ROTW). You are then unwilling to even share these independent thoughts and views you have with your own organisation as you secretly know that it is an abusive organisation which does not allow such independent views (even just having them as private thoughts). And before you say it, yes, individuals in Christian churches are able to disagree with each other in many minor areas. JWs are different by far in that they are not able to think (let alone express) even the smallest of independent thoughts. Certainly, the things that you differ from them with most certainly fall into this category; in fact I would be so bold as to suggest that some are major areas of disagreement. I won’t repeat them all here again, but for sake of clarity (and I think you need reminding of what you have actually said) here is the post reference:
Date Posted: 11:54:08 06/07/04 Mon
In reply to: Donald 's message, "Re: Challenge to Donald" on 10:14:57 06/07/04 Mon
And do you know what the really tragic thing is in all of this? It is the people you view as the enemy (myself, Reachout, and all of evangelical Christianity it would appear), that have been telling you all along that the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society are a mind control cult. They have lied to you (the UN issue), changed their doctrines many times, made false prophesies, etc. etc. and so the list goes on. You have been faced with it all Donald over the years, yet still insist on defending an organisation that wants to bind you up as an individual.
Remember that the people you demonize have been trying to help you. You know what I really think? I think that you ‘need’ to think critically against someone or something. The WT has trained you to do this, and it has made you feel good to find an outlet for this initially. Maybe it did your ego good to win arguments on the doors with ‘church goers’. Then you came across the reachout site and saw arguments that the average JW doesn’t really see. You created an apologetic. A noble cause and not one that the average JW would embark on. However, over the years bits may have stuck I feel. When you have been away from the reachout forum though I feel that you have probably begun to turn your critical thinking abilities against your own organisation. After a time away like this, you emerged as ROTW – It was great to see that honesty and frankness Donald. But after a while you just seemed to slip back into defending the Watchtower again, as this is what you have been trained to do. I would suggest that you have time out from forums such as Reachout and carry on using your God given critical thinking abilities towards the WT again. Uncomfortable, yes. Necessary? I think you already know the answer to that one.
You end your recent post with:
Donald: “Please take some time to consider your own motives.”
My motives before God are 100% right Donald. In fact, as I have told you many times in the past, my motives are for your good, to see you free from a modern day false prophet and abusive mind control cult – the WBTS. They want to rob you of your intellect, your time, your personality, your freedom to think for yourself, and your salvation in Jesus Christ. Don’t allow them to do it.
Take care Donald. Time out for you and I for now. I forgive you the personal posts (even if you are not willing to apologise), and I do want the best for you (whether you believe me or not – God knows) I have a book to write and other projects I really need to be getting on with.
May you find your peace in Him, and Him alone.
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