| Subject: Re: John 17:5 |
Author:
Ronald
|
[
Next Thread |
Previous Thread |
Next Message |
Previous Message
]
Date Posted: 20:44:43 04/15/06 Sat
In reply to:
Stacey
's message, "John 17:5" on 08:03:29 04/04/06 Tue
Stacey wrote:
>Does John 17:5 support the idea that Jesus existed as
>a seperate identity before creation? I read your
>article on Jesus not being the creator but the first
>thing created in what we know as time or when time
>began, however, Did Jesus exist outside the Father
>before creation? I read this scripture in Young's
>literal and Im still confused on the matter, thanks
I am not sure who this is being directed to, nor am I sure that this refers to what I have written on this, or if it is referring to what someone else has written. At any rate, I thought I would respond, and give my comments.
Yes, John 17:5 does support the idea that Jesus existed before the creation of the world of mankind, but not necessarily before the creation of the physical universe itself. It appears that Yahweh may have been all alone when the physical universe itself was created. We are not given a time for when the physical universe itself was born, thus, the physical universe could have been brought forth millions or billions of trillions of years (according to the way we reckon time) before the creation of the world of mankind as spoken of in Genesis 1:1-2:1; Exodus 20:11; 31:17; Mark 10:6; John 1:1-3. This would place the creation of the Logos sometime in between the creation of the physical universe and the "beginning" of the world of mankind spoken of in Genesis 1:1 and John 1:1. The angels, being present as the creation of the world of mankind, were also created before the world of mankind, but some time after the firstborn creature.
(Alternatively, it could be that the LOGOS was created before the physical universe itself, and could have also particpated in that creation.)
The scriptures never speak of a beginning of time.
I will reproduce some excerpts from what I written before concerning this:
Regarding John 1:1:
The "beginning" (Strong's #746) spoken of here is usually thought to be the beginning of all creation, including the unseen spirit world, but in connection with the context, as well as the rest of the Bible, we conclude that it is speaking of the beginning of the world of mankind. We say this partly because of verse 10, which speaks of the world into which the Word came, the world which was made through him, and which rejected him, which is the world of mankind. However, if John is speaking of the creation of all the spirit world and material world, then the beginning could refer to the creation of Jesus as the Logos, or it could be referring to a point in time after the creation of Jesus. The latter would seem more correct, as the Greek word een (Strong's #1722) seems to indicate that Jesus was already there in the beginning spoken of. This definitely is not referring to Yahweh's beginning, since he had no beginning. Jesus was not with the Father before the beginning of absolutely every creation, for he himself was "the beginning of the creation of God", "the firstborn of every creature." -- Proverbs 8:24; Colossians 1:18; Revelation 3:14.
Nevertheless, the "beginning" in John 1:1 appears to be referring to the same beginning as in Genesis 1:1, which refers to the beginning of things pertaining to the physical earth and mankind (including all six days of creation -- Exodus 20:11; 31:17), and not the creation of the spirit world or even of the stars and planet systems. (We should take note that there is a single "day" of creation spoken of in Genesis 2:4, which "day" includes "six days" in which he created the heavens [skies] and the earth [land masses]. -- Exodus 20:13; see also Matthew 19:4,5, which refers to the beginning when Adam and Eve were created.) The angels were already in existence in the spirit world at the creation being spoken of. -- Job 4:11-17; Mark 10:6.
Thus the Logos, the Word, existed with God his Father before the beginning of earth's creation (Proverbs 8:25-27; John 17:5; 1 John 1:1,2), as mentioned in Genesis. He was both the first created, being the firstborn creature of the Father -- the first that the Father gave life to, as well as the first or highest in rank. -- Colossians 1:15
***
John 1:3,10 speaks of the creation of the world of mankind, not of absolutely everything in the universe. Thus the word panta (usually translated in John 1:3 as "all things") and the words "oude hen" (usually translated as "not one thing" need to viewed relative to what is being spoken of, that is the world of mankind into which the Logos came and was not recognized by. (John 1:10) The words "things" and "thing" are supplied by the translators. Without adding the supplied word "things" and "thing", the verse would read: "All through him came to be, and without him not one came to be." Where to end the sentence has been disputed for centuries. Many would extend the sentence to include the rest of verse 3: "All through him came be, and without him not one came to be which has come to be." Others would put the last part of verse 3 with the next sentence. Either way, one has to consider the context, which speaks of that which was made through the Logos as the world of mankind into which the Logos came.
The above would be in harmony with several scriptures where creation is spoken with reference to creation of mankind, not the angels, stars, etc. -- Mark 10:6; Romans 8:20,22; 2 Peter 3:4.
We might add that many Bible Students have thought that the "all" here refers to angels, cherubim, seraphim, worlds, etc., as well as mankind. (R3475:1; R5351:6; R5372:1) Nonetheless, from the context of John 1:3, and the actual wording that John used, we conclude that the "panta" -- all -- that is being spoken of us is the creation of the things of the world of mankind, and not that of the angels, etc. At any rate, it should be apparent that the one *through* whom the things are made would of necessity not be included in the things made, even if he had been brought into existence before the things being referred.
Jesus is not being called the Creator here, as some have assumed. In the King James Version we read in John 1:3: "All things were made by him." The word translated "by" in the KJV is the Greek word di (Strong's #1223). Its basic meaning is "through", as an instrument or container being used. Thus, in connection with the context, Ton Theon created all the things being spoken by means of the Logos. Many trinitarians realize that this is speaking of the Logos as the agent of God. Regarding this verse, Newman and Nida states: "This statement is literally 'all things through him came into being.' The Greek phrase through him indicates that the Word was the agent in creation, but at the same time the context clearly implies that God is the ultimate source of creation." -- A Translator's Handbook on the Gospel of John, by Barclay M. Newman and Eugene A. Nida, 1980 edition, page 10.
http://reslight.net/john1.html
See also:
http://reslight.net/beg.html
http://reslight.net/jesbeg.html
http://reslight.net/gen1-1.html
http://reslight.net/heb1-10.html
Christian love,
Ronald
[
Next Thread |
Previous Thread |
Next Message |
Previous Message
]
| |
Feedback: 