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Subject: Re: I wouldn't have used those terms, but...


Author:
An Observer
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Date Posted: 12:35:53 04/17/24 Wed
In reply to: Ghost 's message, "Re: I wouldn't have used those terms, but..." on 12:27:04 04/17/24 Wed

Stanford is the smartest girl at the dance -- by far.

But she ain't pretty.

And the market has once again, as it has for the last 200,000 years of human existence, voted on whether it wants the smart girl or the pretty girl.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: I wouldn't have used those terms, but...


Author:
Ghost
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Date Posted: 14:04:02 04/17/24 Wed

I did Google it, on your suggestion, and it came down to media market size, that the Bay Area was not large enough. Was Portland (Oregon/Oregon State) or Omaha (Nebraska) large enough? Have a feeling they didn't want two outstanding academic places, including the premier academic/athletic place, infringing on enrollment.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: I wouldn't have used those terms, but...


Author:
An Observer
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Date Posted: 14:38:59 04/17/24 Wed

I think that the Big Ten had two considerations: local media market size AND attractiveness of football brand name.

You are correct that, from the perspective of all sports, Stanford is the most successful athletic department in the country.

One thing that I've never understood is why Ivy athletic departments and Harvard in particular are so proud of sponsoring so many sports. Literally, nobody cares about women's rugby. Why would any school sponsor women's rugby, other than to get more female athletes on campus to offset football for Title IX purposes?

What was shocking (at some level) is when Stanford announced that it was dropping about a dozen sports for financial reasons. So even if you're winning national championships in a sport like water polo or sailing or rugby, it's difficult to justify the financial cost, not to mention of course the REAL cost, the slots at the admission office.

So the market has once again spoken. Nobody -- as in the Big Ten or any other conference -- finds your hair to be beautiful or your breasts to be perky because you have a national championship water polo team. Football talks. Everything else walks.

That's why USC, UCLA, Washington and Oregon were deemed attractive while Stanford was not.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: I wouldn't have used those terms, but...


Author:
Ghost
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Date Posted: 14:55:03 04/17/24 Wed

Excellent points, for sure. To try and answer your question about sponsoring so many sports, from my experience in the league and talking with admissions people, is that diversity in the undergraduate pool is a prime motivator. I remember discussing this with our admissions guy and he said, "we could fill this place with nerds who score 2300-2400 but what kind of a place would we have?" It's the extra curricular stuff that gets one applicant the edge- being on the debate team, doing community service work, playing in the band, being on a team- those things lift one over another. Maybe playing a non-glamorous, non-revenue sport shows a level of commitment to other students and to the school that the nerdy, 2380 SAT student who's spending his/her free time in the library, doesn't. And they're all paying customers, right?
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Incoming ...


Author:
sparman
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Date Posted: 14:59:02 04/17/24 Wed

"Literally, nobody cares about women's rugby."
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Incoming ...


Author:
Ghost
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 15:10:38 04/17/24 Wed

Except those 25 paying customers who may be leaders in student government or 4.0 students lifting the entire department's GPA. Remember saying the same thing about women's basketball 20 years ago? Or about fencing three weeks ago?
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Incoming ... The Market is Not Interested in Equity or Fairness or Being Nice


Author:
An Observer
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Date Posted: 15:27:22 04/17/24 Wed

I'm not defending the status quo, far from it. But human nature is human nature. And history is history.

Here's a fascinating factoid from the Grey Lady herself:

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/04/15/magazine/dating-after-50.html?searchResultPosition=1

According to a 2018 study by two professors at the University of Michigan who analyzed 186,000 messages between heterosexual subscribers on an unnamed "public and large" online dating website, at what age do you think a man peaks in his attractiveness to women?

Need to think about it for a second? This would include I presume the usual desired attributes of physical attractiveness but also professional accomplishment, maturity and economic means.

The answer is 50. A man peaks in his attractiveness to women at age 50.

After sifting through the same database of heterosexual subscribers on the dating website, the Michigan researchers found that women peak in their attractiveness at. . . .

Wanna guess?

18. A female subscriber on Match or Tinder or whatever peaks in her attractiveness to male subscribers at 18, the earliest age at which she is legally allowed to join, and declines uninterrupted from there.

Well, the 50-year-old man is the Big Ten and the SEC. The 18-year-old woman is football.

The twenty-five players on the women's rugby teams and the fans who follow them are 50-year-old women, which the New York Times in this article calls "invisible."

It's not fair. It's not right. But once again, the market has spoken.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Incoming ... The Market is Not Interested in Equity or Fairness or Being Nice


Author:
Ghost
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Date Posted: 15:50:11 04/17/24 Wed

Who cares if it's not a spectator sport. How many years did we/do we endure empty gymnasiums (WBB) or empty stands at field hockey venues or fencing salles? Are we basing the continuance of these sports on revenue generation, fan attendance or the fact they bring a different, diverse group of students to campus?
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Incoming ... The Market is Not Interested in Equity or Fairness or Being Nice


Author:
An Observer
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 16:16:55 04/17/24 Wed

I'm not disagreeing with you as much as I'm saying the market disagrees with you. In this case, the market is the conferences with the money and the leverage, that is, the Big Ten and the SEC.

I'm certainly with you in the following way:

Over the very very very long run, what determines the prestige of a university?

In the short run, it might be bumped up by a winning football or basketball team, but only a little and not for long.

In the longer run, a university's prestige is impacted by Nobel Prizes its faculty wins and Rhodes Scholarships its seniors win.

And like it or not, fair or not, a university's prestige is impacted by its ranking in the US News Best Colleges list. That's why schools like Columbia and Penn have gamed the system so aggressively.

But in the very very very long run, a university's prestige is determined most directly by the achievements and renown of its graduates.

I hope that science advances so much that all of us could still be around in a century. Ivy League and other elite universities are doing so much social engineering in their student bodies right now that I am fascinated by how and how much their alumni achieve and accomplish over the next century.

There might not be too much difference between them because certainly all of the Ivies are playing out of the exact same playbook. The same desire for diversity, the same political screen and so forth.

But I wonder whether the alumni of, say, 2024 Ivies will contribute and achieve the way that the alumni of 1964 Ivies did. What about 2024 HYP and 1964 HYP? There are a lot of other variables in the mix, too, of course, but I want to see what happens in the long run to these whining, hyper-left-leaning students. I don't think it will be pretty.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Incoming ... The Market is Not Interested in Equity or Fairness or Being Nice


Author:
Ghost
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Date Posted: 16:38:51 04/17/24 Wed

I can't disagree with you and I have a feeling that's mutual. The Ivies have NEVER related anything in Athletics to the market. Never invested (in a big way) in upgraded/new arenas for their most visible sport, basketball, had to twist/break some arms to get a four team tournament, play only 10 football games with a limited number of practices, on and on. But to attract a more diverse student body, YES, that's worth the investment in a coaching staff, uniforms, travel, practice gear, etc. Give me 28 full paying, academically qualified students who might normally go to Wesleyan, Tufts, Skidmore or Catholic U to play (insert sport here) and we'll have them play here.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Incoming ... The Market is Not Interested in Equity or Fairness or Being Nice


Author:
An Observer
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Date Posted: 16:51:20 04/17/24 Wed

One thing we agree on is that we're not disagreeing with each other.

But I will point out that, unlike when I applied to college, the Ivies these days have no problem attracting and matriculating diverse student bodies along whatever dimension of diversity we want.

With ample financial aid and very low admissions rates, the Ivies today truly are "assembling" their student bodies in one of the grandest social engineering experiments ever undertaken, maybe the most ambitious ever.

Seriously, what historic social engineering experiment ever is more ambitious and broad in scope than what the Ivies and Ivy Plus universities are doing right now?

The only question is whether one of those desired dimensions of diversity is female rugby players.

I'm afraid that's the one where you and I don't see the world the same way.

That's okay. Different strokes for different folks.

I will say that I am confident the administrators at Ivy League universities, right or wrong, spend very little time thinking about how to improve our student bodies relative to Wesleyan or Tufts, as fine as those two universities are.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Incoming ... The Market is Not Interested in Equity or Fairness or Being Nice


Author:
David Perry (Not in a While)
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 22:53:34 05/05/24 Sun

Sorry, but the historian in me has to point out that the Ivies related a whole lot of things in athletics to the market. . .up until about 1930. :-)
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Incoming ...


Author:
sparman
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Date Posted: 19:53:04 04/17/24 Wed

Anyone who has been around here for a while knows what I am talking about.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Incoming ...


Author:
Rufus T
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Date Posted: 11:52:28 04/18/24 Thu

Could not agree with you more Sparman. So predictable what will trigger a bloviating response
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Too easy...


Author:
Go Green
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 17:24:22 04/17/24 Wed


https://www.nbcsports.com/olympics/news/usa-womens-rugby-qualifies-paris-2024-olympics

USA! USA!
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Incoming ...


Author:
Tiger69
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Date Posted: 10:33:53 04/24/24 Wed

Woman rugby player to An Observer, “Hey, you gotta problem?”.


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