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Subject: Interesting article Author: sparman [ Next Thread | Previous Thread | Next Message | Previous Message ] Date Posted: 10:08:12 04/23/24 Tue In reply to: observer 's message, "Re: There are more than three basic options" on 09:55:00 04/23/24 Tue Although I had to laugh a little at the notion that southern colleges differ from northern ones because it is the latter group that has "ghosts of dead white men." [ Next Thread | Previous Thread | Next Message | Previous Message ]

Replies:

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: There are more than three basic options Author: joiseyfan [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 14:40:42 04/23/24 Tue Rather than get into a sentence-by-sentence deconstruction of the Bari Weiss universe, let’s just say that Joisey, which since time immemorial has exported more students than any other state — not %, numbers, more bodies than either New York or California, for example — has been sending kids west, south, north, and east for many decades. The idea it’s much better publicized now is all to the good, because they should go where they fit, not where they or their parents live, or THINK they should want to go. The idea that this will have any discernible effect on the Ivies in the near future is a misguided fallback on the idea that there is some magic list of 2000 students that compose an ideal Harvard class (for example). In fact, the ideal class is one of thousands of selections of 2000 of the 25,000 fully-qualified applicants. There have been 10-20% of admittees who have been turning down Harvard forever, and it’s part of the game.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Shooting the Messenger Author: observer [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 08:58:33 04/24/24 Wed I know Bari Weiss isn't your cup of tea, so... https://www.natesilver.net/p/go-to-a-state-school There are way too many ostriches in this room. Change or Perish.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Depends on the messenger Author: sparman [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 09:57:33 04/24/24 Wed We all have our own anecdotal sources. Mine differ a great deal from yours. A poll of opinions held by Americans who don't much believe in things like science or education doesn't carry weight with me. If a poll showed a majority of those polled think the moon was made of cheese or that God has a summer house on Jupiter - as I suspect some parts of the country may fervently believe - I wouldn't rush to claim NASA should initiate a cheese mining program or a Jupiter pilgrimage. I note that Silver said he applied to Harvard. I'm willing to bet it's an 85.365% probability that had he been accepted, he would have attended (BTW, some nationally prominent conservative writers local to my area have been sending their kids to ivies.) I agree that if one's goal is to "find oneself", an ivy school may not be the place and state schools can be a better choice. But that's nothing new. And from what I see, the typical student usually has some pretty clear ambitions when they attend. As for the amount of premium, this article completely misses the fact that a majority of ivy students don't pay full freight, which even cursory research reveals. He may have a point that there are disappointing trends recently. Some of us recall challenging political times of long ago. Silver is a bit too callow to know much about how colleges navigated those times. I think it's a bit early to pronounce the patient is dying.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Ask Danny Wolf and Malik Mack Author: observer [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 10:18:53 04/24/24 Wed If the Ivy degree was still held in the same esteem, would we be seeing the undergrads transferring out? It's one thing for the grad transfers to accelerate, but if a Yalie and a John feel that the time on campus ain't worth the degree... what then?

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: It's not like they went to Hofstra or Valpo Author: Go Green [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 11:05:53 04/24/24 Wed If you think that Ivy degrees are worth THAT much more than U of Michigan or Georgetown, all power to you. But I wouldn't expect your view to be universally shared.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: It's not like they went to Hofstra or Valpo Author: observer [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 11:16:20 04/24/24 Wed Many here do.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: "Many" and "here" are doing some awfully heavy lifting there Author: Go Green [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 12:14:41 04/24/24 Wed Among the posters on the Board who share your views that Harvard and Yale are light years ahead of Michigan and Princeton, we're talking what? 10 guys? 20?

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Wish this Board had an "edit" feature part 678 Author: Go Green [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 12:26:00 04/24/24 Wed Michigan and Georgetown. :)

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Ask Danny Wolf and Malik Mack Author: Anthony [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 12:54:02 04/24/24 Wed If five years from now Danny Wolf is playing in the NBA, he's probably going to think that transferring to Michigan was a good idea, even though he knows that making it to the NBA from Yale was and is a possibility. If ten years from now Wolf is still in the NBA, we'll all think that transferring was a good decision. But if five years from now he's playing in Europe and ten years from now he's got a mundane desk job somewhere in Corporate America while his friends from Yale are thriving in their careers and getting together at the Yale Club in Manhattan, he's going to be wistful. So we'll see.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Ask Danny Wolf and Malik Mack Author: Ghost [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 14:00:37 04/24/24 Wed Somehow I think the Michigan grads working on Wall Street would love to have him at their firm when he graduates, much less playing on their Lawyers League hoop team https://www.quora.com/Is-the-University-of-Michigan-a-good-school-to-get-into-Wall-Street

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Ask Danny Wolf and Malik Mack Author: sparman [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 14:26:03 04/24/24 Wed If the ivy degree is universally held in low esteem by undergrads, why are nonathletes not universally transferring out? And why did you attend?

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Ask Danny Wolf and Malik Mack Author: observer [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 14:55:07 04/24/24 Wed Because the degree signified intellectual capacity in the employment marketplace when I and others attended. Too many here would see a dead canary in a coal mine and blame the canary for dying.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Ask Danny Wolf and Malik Mack Author: Ghost [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 15:05:43 04/24/24 Wed Surely the Ivy League experience is different for athletes and non-athletes. Maybe someone has a study they can contribute to the discussion, but let's take Danny Wolf as an example. He's played two years at Yale, won an Ivy Championship and now wants to consider (at least) a potential professional basketball career. Where is his best chance of realizing that dream? If he stays at Yale, he'll be practicing every day against an inferior player. He'll play 3-4 guarantee games versus high level D1 opponents where he'll have a chance to showcase his skills. If he goes to Michigan, not only will be at a comparably academically strong institution (and its' alumni network), but he'll facing a physically equal opponent in practice EVERY day (good for improving your skills), get top quality coaching (I love James Jones and his staff but let's give Michigan's staff a slight edge in player development) have the BEST facilities available for development, be on a campus that embraces D1 athletics with a Big Ten football game at home six times a year, hefty NIL pocket money, a considerable Northeast/Jewish population and the elimination of the what if? question for the rest of his life if he doesn't do this? So let's not diminish the Ivy League degree, let's embrace the seizing of an opportunity that very few Ivy League (to start) students ever get.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Ask Danny Wolf and Malik Mack Author: sparman [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 16:38:18 04/24/24 Wed I agree completely about differences between athletes and nonathletes, but IMO that supports the argument against generalizing about lessening appeal of the degree drawn from a currently high number of athlete transfers or current campus protests. And to our observant colleague, the conclusion about the degree opening doors to your desired career path is exactly why many HS students have looked, and will continue to look, to the ivies, notwithstanding Mr. Silver's general opinion (which BTW expressly acknowledged the value of the degree in certain very common ivy graduate paths).

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Ask Danny Wolf and Malik Mack Author: Ghost [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 18:23:23 04/24/24 Wed You and I are good but let me set up a hypothetical. You are overseeing the hiring at a financial institution. Would you look more favorably at a graduate from Davidson, Northwestern, Boston U who played four years of basketball vs an Ivy League grad who did not participate in athletics?

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Ask Danny Wolf and Malik Mack Author: sparman [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 20:17:55 04/24/24 Wed My spouse oversaw that function at such an institution for a while. I am told they looked for ivy grads, assuming other factors were good. If someone was top of class at other schools they might be viewed comparably. Athletics could help, depending on what they did, because it could show organizational and team skills, etc., but were not a primary factor. Of course each department has its own profile - investment banking very different from floor trading, for example.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Ask Danny Wolf and Malik Mack Author: joiseyfan [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 21:06:52 04/24/24 Wed My spouse must have hired three or four hundred senior editorial and financial staffers for billion-dollar corporations and consultancies over the years. I never heard her refer to athletics as a differentiator (although possibly a plus). In contrast, she was maniacal about hiring graduates who could write effectively and in multiple forms, ESPECIALLY financial hires. She was constantly turning down honors accounting grads from programs you would know, who couldn’t compose a two-paragraph memo.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Ask Danny Wolf and Malik Mack Author: Ghost [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 14:30:58 04/26/24 Fri Interesting hearing the perspective from two women, I wonder if guys might look at it a bit differently. Thanks for the responses.