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Date Posted: 18:27:58 03/08/03 Sat
Author: Carol Freundlich
Author Host/IP: sdn-ap-009caburbP0250.dialsprint.net / 63.184.80.250
Subject: Lucius Accius
In reply to:
wayne
's message, "Oderint dum metuant" on 00:14:33 10/29/02 Tue
Thank you so much for the history of the Latin quote used by John Brady Kiesling in his courageous resignation letter to a president whose policies he could, wisely, no longer support. "Oderint dum metuant," I fear, characterizes the Bush government's policy far too well.
Carol Freundlich
Tucson, AZ
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We disagree, Carol. The diplomat may resign if he wishes but that does not make him right or Presiden Bush wrong. Bush is a far better president than Clinton before him or Jimmy Carter back in the 1970s. As a result of many of Clinton's and Carter's actions we have a mess on our hands which was left by Clinton for the current president, George W. Bush, to clean up. I am grateful that Gore did not win the presidency for I think people would really learn the meaning of fear. He would not have a clue nor would the likes of Tom Daschle and others. -- William, 23:08:35 03/08/03 Sat (cache-rl02.proxy.aol.com/152.163.189.98)
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It is right and just for the US to take pains to root out terrorists and the regimes which support them. We were attacked before, during, and after 9/11 and there must be steps taken to root out these regimes which support militant terrorists and the thugs they support, train, supply, and will supply. Bush is far more honest, up front, and to the point than that show boat administration before him. That is a welcome change. He might not be perfect and I have disagreements with some of this administration's policies but overall he is a far cry from what the alternative was. -- William, 23:11:52 03/08/03 Sat (cache-rl02.proxy.aol.com/152.163.189.98)
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Nobody has yet supplied any convincing evidence that Iraq or Saddam Hussein supports Al Qaeda. And as for Osama, he's sitting in his cave, chuckling away, because he attacked the USA but the USA is retaliating against a godless unislamic non-Shariah regime that's number 2 on his hitlist. What a manipulator, we're doing exactly what he wants. -- Chris Henry, 00:02:28 03/09/03 Sun (cache8-2.ruh.isu.net.sa/212.138.47.27)
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Nonsense, Chris! There IS convincing evidence that Saddam Hussein/Iraq has been and is dealing with al Qaeda. Nevertheless that is not the most important point. The point is that Iraq IS a regime which DOES support, provide training, money, and personnel for terrorists and terrorist activities. They have been providing materials, money, and training for suicide bombers who kill Israeli children. They provide training for terrorists near Baghdad including on a facility equipped with an airline fuselage on which terrorists are trained to hijack and/or attack aircraft as was done on 9/11. -- William, 02:08:35 03/09/03 Sun (cache-rl02.proxy.aol.com/152.163.189.98)
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There is evidence that Iraqis were working together with al Qaeda and related groups to attack the Alfred P. Murray Federal Building in Oklahoma City 1995. Also, Abu Nidal, one of the most feared and brutal terrorist leaders of the 1980s and early 1990s was welcome in Baghdad for medical attention. When asked by Saddam to train al Qaeda members Abu Nidal refused and was murdered at Saddam's order. There is more than this but that is enough for now. -- William, 02:12:27 03/09/03 Sun (cache-rl02.proxy.aol.com/152.163.189.98)
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This all sounds like more of the famous and unconvincing Powell and Blair "dossiers". Unfortunately, even with 100+ inspectors crawling all over Iraq, presumably guided by US and UK intelligence, no tangible evidence has been found. Hence the high level of world-wide disbelief. Nobody had problems believing the 1962 Cuba evidence, there were photos for all to see. -- Chris Henry, 03:12:42 03/09/03 Sun (cache8-2.ruh.isu.net.sa/212.138.47.27)
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It is also obvious, based on your comment about Collin Powell's testimony, that you choose to devalue the information he presented. That definitely reveals your bias against Powell, the Bush administration, and the United States and your favoritism for Blix, the UN Inspectors, the UN Security Council members opposing action against Saddam, and your favoritism of Saddam himself. Powell offered legitimate evidence against Saddam and Iraq and you and others chose to discount it as was done during the build up of Nazism and the German war machine in the 1930s. History is repeating itself again. -- William, 15:18:17 03/09/03 Sun (cache-dq01.proxy.aol.com/205.188.209.133)
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Chris, it seems that you do not understand the purpose of the inspections. The UN inspectors are not there to play detective or to take part in an Easter Egg hunt or a "Where's Elmo" hunt. The Iraqis are supposed to disarm and show the inspectors when, how, and where they disarmed. They have not done this. They are in material breach of the cease fire agreement the Iraqis signed in 1991 and Iraq is also in violation of UN resolution 1441. The inspectors are not supposed to find the weapons. -- William, 15:26:13 03/09/03 Sun (cache-dq01.proxy.aol.com/205.188.209.133)
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Nevertheless there has been tangible evidence found of weapons. There have been numerous shells found which the Iraqis played the part of the surprised with "Gee, how did that get there?". There has been evidence found of nuclear weapons programs as recently as 2002. Blix himself failed to tell of the unmanned drone which Iraq has and which was buried in Blix's report and Blix failed to mention the drums and sprayers which can be used to deliver chemical and biological weapons which Iraq has. -- William, 15:28:05 03/09/03 Sun (cache-dq01.proxy.aol.com/205.188.209.133)
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You mention photos of Cuba from the Missile Crisis. Have you failed to notice the photos of Iraqis moving materials from buildings known to house WMDs? Have you failed to notice recorded conversations among Iraqis signaling one another of Inspectors coming and to move the materials? Have you failed to notice the scientists and military officers who defected and revealed the breaches of Iraq in their WMD program and the fact that it is confirmed that Iraq is hiding these weapons, have shipped a good portion of them to Syria, Libya, and elsewhere while they had plenty of time to do so, etc.? -- William, 15:35:52 03/09/03 Sun (cache-dq01.proxy.aol.com/205.188.209.133)
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"Methinks she doth protest too much" - Shakespeare, Hamlet. I wish I got this rate of return on my mutual funds. I especially like the one about Oklahoma. -- Chris Henry, 23:55:18 03/09/03 Sun (cache7-1.ruh.isu.net.sa/212.138.47.17)
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Chris, thanks for your reply. The quote from Shakespeare's "Hamlet", Act III, Scene 2, is not "Me thinks she doth protest too much" but "The lady doth protest too much, methinks". It was spoken by the queen to her son while they observe a play taking place on a stage. The character in the play was denying something, the same way Saddam Hussein, the UN, and the anti-US and anti-war factions are doing today. -- William, 14:24:01 03/10/03 Mon (cache-dq01.proxy.aol.com/205.188.209.133)
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OK, so those 'suicide bomber training camps' are just for fun. Like the Boy Scouts or 4H. And the 'reward' $$$? When will you all figure out that it is NOT numerous separate wars but the SAME war? GEEZ! -- JL (head is sore from hitting all the brick walls trying to reason with these ... ), 22:12:03 03/13/03 Thu (pcp01376707pcs.selrsv01.pa.comcast.net/68.80.69.241)
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So which country is more liable to supply nuclear weapons to terrorists - Iraq, just certified as having no nuclear program, or North Korea, which tells everyone about theirs? That's why Bush plans to attack the former, but believes we can deal with the latter "thru diplomacy". Go figure. -- Chris Henry, 00:17:53 03/09/03 Sun (cache1-2.ruh.isu.net.sa/212.138.47.11)
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Chris, who is certifying Iraq as having no nuclear weapons program? Hans Blix? There has been evidence of Saddam's nuclear weapons program as recently as year 2002 and even recently. There are numerous military officers and scientists who have defected who have given testimony that Saddam is working on WMDs including biological weapons, chemical weapons, and nuclear weapons. (Click for more) -- William, 02:32:58 03/09/03 Sun (cache-rl02.proxy.aol.com/152.163.189.98)
The objective is to prevent him from doing so for he is insane and has already proven by his own actions that he will use them on others. If we do not wish him to use them on us then we must take steps to stop him.
The UN has allowed Saddam to get away with breaching the cease fire agreement he made during the Gulf War. Saddam Hussein was supposed to disarm but instead he played hide and seek.
The US lit a fire under Saddam's ass and the UN's ass. We are finding that the UN security council is now a weak and insignificant group of civil rights abusers and tyrants, such as China, Russia, Syria, Libya, and others, and appeasers and enablers like France and Germany, rife with anti-Semitic elements and a large Islamic population which they fear and now a possessing a US envy as well as anti-US sentiment (again based on envy).
Regarding North Korea, do you know how many nuclear weapons North Korea has? You say they are telling everyone about theirs yet who knows how many they have, if any? The US provided them with nuclear power plants, which North Korea is not using in the process of nuclear weapons. Too bad the US helped a country which has turned out to be led by a crazy man, Kim Il Jung.
I think you are projecting the cowardice and lack of responsibility of our previous president, William Jefferson Clinton, onto our current president, George W. Bush. If Bush is in office I expect him to deal with North Korea militarily if necessary.
In this case he has a different set of neighbors from Iraq, Iran, Saudi Arabia, etc. The area of the Middle East is a harbinger of Islamofascism and the Islamofascist movement.
The Chinese, Russia, Japan, and South Korea should be concerned about North Korea. If they act like they countries opposing the toppling of Saddam Hussein are now acting, then the world has truly gone to sleep. These groups, China, South Korea, Russia, and Japan should step up to the plate and deal with North Korea.
You said that the US is dealing with North Korea with diplomacy. I don't see it. The US refuses to deal with North Korea period until they get off their nuclear weapons kick.
If you do not think that the US will engage North Korea if necessary then you are entitled to your belief as am I. I think that with Bush as president, someone with some backbone, the US will engage North Korea if necessary. Provided the US does not wait until it is too late, the US could defeat North Korea and the people of North Korea would be much happier as a result of it. At least they will eat and sleep better and enjoy a higher standard of living than they are under their current leadership.
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Two days ago, the Inspectors' report in the UN Security Council. Of course, you can choose to disbelieve them. But in that case, who are you going to believe? -- Chris Henry, 03:05:58 03/09/03 Sun (cache1-2.ruh.isu.net.sa/212.138.47.11)
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Blix has already revealed a bias in his reporting and has extended beyond his role as chief inspector by injecting conjecture and theory into his interpretations of Iraq's weapons and their intended use as well as his interpretation of such subjects as aluminum tubes, chemicals, shells, movement of materials and satellite photographs of said recorded activity. I believe Collin Powell, Condaleezza Rice, and George W. Bush, George Tenet, and others before I would believe Hans Blix or Saddam Hussein, and I would believe the Bush administration before I would believe Saddam Hussein. -- William, 15:11:08 03/09/03 Sun (cache-dq01.proxy.aol.com/205.188.209.133)
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William, it's strange how much I, Hans Blix, everyone except you in fact, is "biased". That's worth pondering for a minute. -- Chris Henry, 23:49:45 03/09/03 Sun (cache3-2.ruh.isu.net.sa/212.138.47.13)
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Chris, don't cry and please stop exaggerating. I never said "everyone" is bias, you said that. I never said I was not or am not bias, you said that. I am bias about a great many things. I support the president regarding Iraq and Saddam Hussein. I am pro-life and I oppose abortion. I am bias toward parents raising children at home and not farming them out to day care, preschool, etc. This does contribute to the deterioration in the fabric of our society in a number of levels for children do not bond as stronly with their parents and have a more fractured upbrining through this practice. -- William, 14:39:19 03/10/03 Mon (cache-dq01.proxy.aol.com/205.188.209.133)
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I favor extended breastfeeding babies over formula/bottle feeding. I am bias against much of what passes for "music." I favor Latin, Classical, Jazz, Rock, Country, Cajun, Hawaiian, Indian, Chinese, Japanese and a few other forms of music over hip-hop, rap, and heavy metal. I am have a bias for Indian, Chinese, Thai, Italian, Burmese, Vietnamese, and a few other forms or styles of food over McDonald's, meat and potatoes, etc. I definitely have my own biases. In the case of the UN weapons inspectors, Hans Blix is overstepping his role as chief inspector and siding with Iraq and the French. -- William, 14:46:07 03/10/03 Mon (cache-dq01.proxy.aol.com/205.188.209.133)
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Kiesling/Oderint dum metuant -- Kim, 07:20:01 03/10/03 Mon (dialup-63.209.86.184.Dial1.LosAngeles1.Level3.net/63.209.86.184)
Kiesling's letter of resignation, in which he used phrase Oderint dum metuant, may be found in the Congressional record, on Page E363-E364 (Extensions), where it was entered March 4, 2003 by Representative Fortney Pete Stark.
You can find a transcript of it on the Federation of Scientists website (FAS), under menu header "Congress", then under "Floor debates 2003".
People should probably read what Kiesling had to say if they're going to discuss it.
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Kim, thanks for the "suggestion" but I read that article a few days ago already. Nevertheless, people throughout history have had feelings or made decisions as Kielsing have made and in some cases they later regretted their decision and realized they were wrong and in other cases they were happy that they made such a decision. Bush is the president and he is responsible for protecting US citizens, not the UN, not Turkey, not France, who helped with Afghanistan by providing 4,500 troops and whose General Lafayette helped the Colonies in their fight against British. -- William, 14:53:20 03/10/03 Mon (cache-dq01.proxy.aol.com/205.188.209.133)
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