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A big shout out to all my Mid-America friends and collegues... welcome to anyone else as well.
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Subject: Traditional Structures too rigid for their own good


Author:
Horshack
[ Edit | View ]
Date Posted: 15:09:55 01/07/04 Wed
So if discipleship methods of current modern trends work well with those who think in modern ways, do we keep those methods in place? Should we keep them in place for the whole church even though some think more postmodern for cause of unity? Devin points out that the youth of the present are heavily postmodern and the traditional ways of answering their questions/dilemas do not seem adequate. One thing I have notice in the youth that I work with is that the "church switch" that they flip on and off in their lives is accentuated by their dichotomy of modern thinking at church, and postmodern thinking with their friends at school and their favorite places. When the youth minister gives that familiar talk to the youth telling them that their lives shouldn't be split into church and school, he/she is fighting more than hypocrosy, the youth leader is fighting to combine two schools of thought and this impossibility comes off to the youth as, "Don't just act like you do at church but think and talk like you do at church and your friends and aquaintences (although they don't really know why) will berate you for your backward ways." Youth ministry flourishes when the precious elements of the Gospel and Scripture are communicated (Unadulterated) to the students and accented with instruction that fits with the mindsets of their reality.
Don't get me wrong, the Holy Spirit transcends culture as well as the power of the Gospel. This is obvious enough in observing the Spirit's work in all parts of the globe, yet to try and tell youth, college students, and various others that their postmoderninsm is unscriptural because of modern bias anchored in current church structure is desperately wrong. McLaren is wise to point out that their are pitfalls in postmoderninsm (especially seen in some attempts to transition ministry models into a dawning era) but there are also pitfalls in modern ideology as well. Some of my further posts will be on both. Regarding old structure in the church and discipleship, the skyscraper is often used to describe the rigidness. A new model might be a river. The banks must be high enough to contain what is occuring (the teacher must have enough depth so that the discussion does not overflow the banks/capacity of the teacher to handle: please note I am not saying He know all the answers or give a concrete response to every question, but it does the students no good for a novice to muddle the issues.) The rocks/debris in the river provide texture. (issues that the studens' minds swirl around and focus on. Some of the rocks are surface material, and some are deeper and less noticeable. It is one of the responsibilities of the teacher to draw out these deeper stones) The momentum of the water is controlled by the degree of the river bed. (The teacher must gage the students and be able to slow or accelerate depending on how things are going.) The river curves and twists. (One of the harder concepts to wrestle with concerning traditional ideas of progress, yet the river, the students minds are always going forward, it is the responsibility of the teacher to help explore the land and cut through valley and across plains to bring life to all areas of the Christian countryside.) More analogies can be drawn but I'm sure you get the picture. Well, write back yo!
[> Subject: Re: Traditional Structures too rigid for their own good


Author:
devin
[ Edit | View ]
Date Posted: 18:50:40 01/08/04 Thu
I think that we must keep in mind that the modern church has been successful and I don't think that we can deny that for a lot of people the modern church is suited perfect for them. Therefore, I think it all depends on the individual church. I am not really resorting to indivdualism but am offering that the individual church should be able to discifer what is really effective discipleship for the people that they are ministering to. I don't think that we should excercise the view that the modern church is bad by any means, but should be noted that there is always room for improvement and in understanding society where it is at in order to understand how to reach out to those people. Now on the subject of unity, I would like to respond with this question: What kind of unity is really being portrayed? I think there is a lot of unity in an individaul church but we fail at unity when it comes to being united to other churches outside a certain denomination or even outside our own church. HOw do we bridge this gap? What if we actually pointed people that we got to know to a church that we think would best suit them in order for their interests to be met and for them to be discipled in there ways that would be effective for them rather than trying to keep them at the church we go to. What if we were that in tuned with other churches that we knew what churches ministries they specialized in? What if there was more and more interaction with other churches? Just something to think about.
[> [> Subject: Faith Based Community


Author:
Horshack
[ Edit | View ]
Date Posted: 20:02:35 01/08/04 Thu
Devin, you're right. For the churches that are working well with the modern structures there is no real need to force change or critisize. The key is to find a way to minister effectively to all the people of the churches whether they are modern or postmodern. I had a great experience over the break preaching to a mennonite congregation. The moderns told me how much they liked my style and what I said and the postmodern youth told their parents (I got all this second hand) that I really connected with them. Praise all to God for His leading in that sermon! It got me to thinking that the way we preach, minister, sing, commune in fellowship with one another will need to be a measured hybrid of modern/postmodern effort. In fact, if there be a way... more than a hybrid, but a equally intensive effort with both thoughts.

About unity within churches and between churches... I think it all has to come down to a community of Faith. If the basic relationships of individuals were based on a mutual faith instead of normal clique routines than the relationships of Christians between churches would be little different than relationships within the church. Think about it... if Christians were taught that their relationships with other Christians were as important as their relationship with God, and that both are based on faith (The same faith in Jesus Christ and His blood, and redeeming intentions)than they would not take into primary consideration whether or not they liked another Christian's personality, looks, accent, speech patterns, or their particular nuances of doctrine. The primary aspect of their relationship is defined by a living breathing vibrant constant found in the person and work of Jesus Christ.

If the sub-community of the local church and community of the whole is based on a mutual faith, than the idea of the body of Christ can be fully realized. We can quit pitting individuals against the whole Holy Writ and expecting them to match up and chastising them when they don't. The individual Christian is a bit of an oximoron. We are the branches, Christ is the vine. We are all connected in our life-source to Christ, we are a community. We must begin to enact and engage that community through Christ (the central core/our very life-source). This helps to free the church from disension in order to engage our commision. This is true on the local church level, and on the global church level. This desire for local churches to consistently interact in constructive ways is possible, but not through normal social interactions, but through the supernatural transforming initiative of our Lord-the Head of his Church. Here's to Devin and that clear head of yours
Subject: Synopsis


Author:
Horshack
[ Edit | View ]
Date Posted: 14:33:23 01/10/04 Sat
When we move spiritual growth from individuals to community, the focus of growing in Christ moves from personal betterment to the strengthening of the whole church and the acceleration of the Great Commission.

{A word on "outreach"} Consider Christians in a relationship based on faith in Christ, rather than clique routines: [C]= "community"

(Parden the grouping, but it is necessary)
-
"I love you because of Jesus" ->
Christian <-> Christian
Chrisitan [C] <-> Christian
Christian [C] <-> Christian [C]
Christian -> nonchristian
Christian [C] -> nonchristian
Christian [C] -> nonchristian [C]

"I love this Jesus in you" ->
Christian <-> Christian
Chrisitan [C] <-> Christian
Christian [C] <-> Christian [C]
Christian <- nonchristian
Christian [C] <- nonchristian
Christian [C] <- nonchristian [C]

It is here that can see that a faith based community accomplishes "outreach" and unity among various Christian communities and persons. Jesus told His disciples that the greatest witness they had to the world was their love for one another. That God powered love in a Christian community is never a exclusionary element either, that love will spill out and pour over the sick and needy (spiritual and physical).
Subject: althought this might be spam


Author:
Hammer
[ Edit | View ]
Date Posted: 23:25:35 01/14/04 Wed
I would like to publicy like to thank Horshack, Devin and all others on this form. I will be buying and reading this book as soon as i can.

Thank you for this warm welcome and i am glad to be a part of this discustion.
Subject: The Gospel


Author:
Horshack
[ Edit | View ]
Date Posted: 07:56:20 01/22/04 Thu
I have been working through an idea that could be a bit controversial, in fact I fight my own tendency to reduce it to babel and just a new way of saying an old thing. It is a new thought for me at least, and it moves beyond my old paradigms of the Gospel.

"The Gospel is not just one thing, it is many things about one thing."

-comments?
Subject: but for the grace of God, there goith I


Author:
bob
[ Edit | View ]
Date Posted: 20:31:53 10/10/04 Sun
thanks Jesus for giving me what You did http://www.geocities.com/ministryofdreams/
Subject: Modern or Post it doesn't make a difference


Author:
Peter
[ Edit | View ]
Date Posted: 17:11:17 10/26/04 Tue
Based on the history of ministry (beginning for arguments sake in The Book of Acts) two clear conclusions can be arrived at:

1-Irrespective of era, culture, or philosophy the biblical message translates into a timeless culture that has always been radically different from the surrounding cultures regardless of the era. In fact, it has often been identified because it has radically opposed the culture that it is surrounded by.

2-The gospel message and subsequently all Christian ministry is not, and was not ever intended to simply change the actions and behaviors of the individual. Rather the intent is to change the core and belief system of the individual, including their concepts and constructs. Subsequently this changes the way the individual relates to the universe around them.

Taking these two truths into consideration, there should be no real question as to whether a modern or postmodern approach /tactic is needed to reach young people. The true question is can we present the truth in an untainted, unbiased, undiluted manner.
Subject: Dr. Michael E. Schmidt great trumpet intonation


Author:
Jason
[ Edit | View ]
Date Posted: 09:10:37 11/01/04 Mon
Dr. Michael E.Schmidt has played the QUINT C , or four octaves ABOVE the C that is above the staff!!!
SHAZAM!!!
That is THREE octaves above the famed Super C or if you want to call it the Dubba C, that is three octaves above the famed Dubba C.

WOW!!!!

You gotta hear Dr. Michael E. Schmidt the legand of extreme high note trumpet playing live for yourself.

And the good Doc even answers his phone.

Dr. Schmidt is humble and he will help out anyone.

I have phoned Dr. Michael E. Schmidt for high note help many times.

Doc is very helpful so if high note trumpet playing is what you are looking for invite him to play in your church and hear Doc Schmidt the world's most extreme trumpet high note player for yourself!!!

You can decide.

ZOOMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM

Michael E. Schmidt is the world's most extreme trumpet player.If you want to play high notes on a trumpet you should contact Dr.Michael E.Schmidt of the Trumpet of the Lord Ministries in Athens, TN at:
423-507-9970.
Dr. Michael E. Schmidt is the loudest trumpet player in the world.
No trumpet player is as extreme as Dr. Michael E. Schmidt who is famous around the world for his extreme trumpet high notes.
Those wanting to learn how to play high notes on a trumpet can learn well from Dr.Michael E.Schmidt who is the king of high note trumpet playing.
Dr.Michael E. Schmidt is willing to teach anyone who wants to know how to play high notes on a trumpet, and those wanting to learn how to play high notes on a trumpet should learn from Dr.michael E.Schmidt of the Trumpet of the lord Ministries:
www.trumpetofthelord.com
Dr.Michael E. Schmidt has taught me how to play high notes on a trumpet.
Dr. Michael E. Schmidt`s new concert program features the highest notes that have ever been played on a trumpet. Michael`s bizarre unconventional trumpet playing has the whole trumpet world in an uproar as Michael plays notes on a trumpet higher then they have ever been played or even attempted before. Michael is unafraid to bring the trumpet into an extreme range where it has never been before. This will be the first time that Michael has ever ministered before in public with his new dynamic range 9 minute long worship song called "Holy is the Lord". With Michael`s new song {Holy is the Lord} you will see Michael play the Lord`s Horns with a new, exciting and refreshing level of worship like he has never done before. Michael worships and gives praise to the Lord Jesus Christ with seven different horns all in the same song. Highlights of {Holy is the Lord} include a special section where Michael plays small and large bore piccolo trumpets. Michael also shows his talents to play many different brass instruments as he plays a baritone horn for the first time. For those of you who have been waiting to hear Michael play some of the highest notes that have ever been played before on a trumpet, now is a chance to hear Michael play in the world`s most extreme trumpet range. To schedule Michael to minister to your church or civic event call: 423-507-9970.

Schedule popular Evangelist, Bible teacher and preacher Dr. Michael E. Schmidt for your next event and give your people a chance to hear the trumpet player famous around the world for playing the highest notes that have ever been played before on a trumpet.
If you want to play high notes on a trumpet you should contact Dr.Michael E.Schmidt of the Trumpet of the Lord Ministries in Athens, TN at:
423-507-9970.
Those wanting to learn how to play high notes on a trumpet can learn well from Dr.Michael E.Schmidt who is the king of high note trumpet playing.
Dr.Michael E. Schmidt is willing to teach anyone who wants to know how to play high notes on a trumpet, and those wanting to learn how to play high notes on a trumpet should learn from Dr.michael E.Schmidt of the Trumpet of the lord Ministries:
www.trumpetofthelord.com
Dr.Michael E. Schmidt has taught me how to play high notes on a trumpet.
Dr. Michael E. Schmidt`s new concert program features the highest notes that have ever been played on a trumpet. Michael`s bizarre unconventional trumpet playing has the whole trumpet world in an uproar as Michael plays notes on a trumpet higher then they have ever been played or even attempted before. Michael is unafraid to bring the trumpet into an extreme range where it has never been before. This will be the first time that Michael has ever ministered before in public with his new dynamic range 9 minute long worship song called "Holy is the Lord". With Michael`s new song {Holy is the Lord} you will see Michael play the Lord`s Horns with a new, exciting and refreshing level of worship like he has never done before. Michael worships and gives praise to the Lord Jesus Christ with seven different horns all in the same song. Highlights of {Holy is the Lord} include a special section where Michael plays small and large bore piccolo trumpets. Michael also shows his talents to play many different brass instruments as he plays a baritone horn for the first time. For those of you who have been waiting to hear Michael play some of the highest notes that have ever been played before on a trumpet, now is a chance to hear Michael play in the world`s most extreme trumpet range. To schedule Michael to minister to your church or civic event call: 423-507-9970.

Schedule popular Evangelist, Bible teacher and preacher Dr. Michael E. Schmidt for your next event and give your people a chance to hear the trumpet player famous around the world for playing the highest notes that have ever been played before on a trumpet.
You can ee his website at:
www.trumpetofthelord.com
4235079970
trumpetofthelord@yahoo.com
Subject: A Dispensational Approach To The Bible!


Author:
The Berean
[ Edit | View ]
Date Posted: 16:31:15 12/11/04 Sat
A Dispensational Approach To The Bible!

“Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the Word of Truth” (11 Tim. 2:15).

In Eph 2 the Apostle Paul sets forth the basic three-fold division in God’s dealing with mankind: Time Past (vs 11,12), But Now v. 13), the Ages to Come (v. 7). When the Bible is “laid out” according to this divinely inspired design we easily get an overview of not only that we are reading but when and to whom it was written. Thus the Word of God itself provides us with the key to its own proper understanding and right division:

Time Past: Eph. 2:11-12 sets forth the basic issue in Time Past as the division between the Circumcision and the Uncircumcision, between the nation Israel and the Gentiles. When you find this issue governing the way God was working with man, you know you are in Time Past. This covers the “Old Testament” (see Gen. 17:9-14. Deut. 4:5-8, Num. 23:9) as well as Matthew thru John (see Rom. 15:8, Matt. 105-6; 15:24; John 4:22 and the early Acts period (see Luke 24:47, Acts 1:6-8; 2:14,22,36:5:32:11:19).

But Now: Eph. 2:13 indicates that in the But Now portion Gentiles are no longer “far off” but rather the “middle wall of partition” between Israel and the Gentiles has been eliminated and now “those who were far off are made nigh.” Romans thru Philemon provide the doctrine for the dispensation of grace (Rom. 11:13; 15:16; 16:25, 1 Cor. 14:37, Eph. 3:1-9).

The Ages to Come: God will bring His purposes to fruition and thus Eph. 2:7 points to the Ages to Come. The books of Hebrews thru Revelation focus on this.

The chart below will demonstrate the importance of the secret, hidden nature of the present dispensation of grace (Eph. 3:1-9). Click on the dispensation chart below hide the “mystery” section and you will see the perfect continuity of that “which God hath spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began” (Acts 3:21). The chart will reveal the mystery program and you will visualize how the prophetic program has been temporarily interrupted by “the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began, But now is made manifest” (Rom. 16:25-26).

The present dispensation of grace is “the mystery” hid in God until first revealed to the Apostle Paul (Eph. 3:1-9, Col. 1”24-26, Rom. 16:25-26, 1 Tim. 2:4-7, Tit. 1:2-3, etc.) Thus in Paul’s writings alone we find the doctrine, position, walk and destiny of the body of Christ. Remember: While all Scripture is for us, all Scripture is not written to or about us, all Scripture is not written to or about us. This is the key to understanding the Bible.

Rightly Dividing The Truth Chart


You can read this Bible study by clicking on the link below:
Paul’s Gospel


"Faith Alone in Christ Alone = Salvation"

E-mail this message to all yours friends.
Subject: A Dispensational Approach To The Bible!


Author:
The Berean
[ Edit | View ]
Date Posted: 16:44:17 12/11/04 Sat
A Dispensational Approach To The Bible!

“Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the Word of Truth” (11 Tim. 2:15).

In Eph 2 the Apostle Paul sets forth the basic three-fold division in God’s dealing with mankind: Time Past (vs 11,12), But Now v. 13), the Ages to Come (v. 7). When the Bible is “laid out” according to this divinely inspired design we easily get an overview of not only that we are reading but when and to whom it was written. Thus the Word of God itself provides us with the key to its own proper understanding and right division:

Time Past: Eph. 2:11-12 sets forth the basic issue in Time Past as the division between the Circumcision and the Uncircumcision, between the nation Israel and the Gentiles. When you find this issue governing the way God was working with man, you know you are in Time Past. This covers the “Old Testament” (see Gen. 17:9-14. Deut. 4:5-8, Num. 23:9) as well as Matthew thru John (see Rom. 15:8, Matt. 105-6; 15:24; John 4:22 and the early Acts period (see Luke 24:47, Acts 1:6-8; 2:14,22,36:5:32:11:19).

But Now: Eph. 2:13 indicates that in the But Now portion Gentiles are no longer “far off” but rather the “middle wall of partition” between Israel and the Gentiles has been eliminated and now “those who were far off are made nigh.” Romans thru Philemon provide the doctrine for the dispensation of grace (Rom. 11:13; 15:16; 16:25, 1 Cor. 14:37, Eph. 3:1-9).

The Ages to Come: God will bring His purposes to fruition and thus Eph. 2:7 points to the Ages to Come. The books of Hebrews thru Revelation focus on this.

The chart below will demonstrate the importance of the secret, hidden nature of the present dispensation of grace (Eph. 3:1-9). Click on the dispensation chart below hide the “mystery” section and you will see the perfect continuity of that “which God hath spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began” (Acts 3:21). The chart will reveal the mystery program and you will visualize how the prophetic program has been temporarily interrupted by “the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began, But now is made manifest” (Rom. 16:25-26).

The present dispensation of grace is “the mystery” hid in God until first revealed to the Apostle Paul (Eph. 3:1-9, Col. 1”24-26, Rom. 16:25-26, 1 Tim. 2:4-7, Tit. 1:2-3, etc.) Thus in Paul’s writings alone we find the doctrine, position, walk and destiny of the body of Christ. Remember: While all Scripture is for us, all Scripture is not written to or about us, all Scripture is not written to or about us. This is the key to understanding the Bible.

Rightly Dividing The Truth Chart


You can read this Bible study by clicking on the link below:
Paul’s Gospel


"Faith Alone in Christ Alone = Salvation"

E-mail this message to all yours friends.
Subject: A Time For Honesty


Author:
Tornadotron
[ Edit | View ]
Date Posted: 23:16:21 01/01/05 Sat
http://www.network54.com/Forum/350065
Subject: The Believing Remnant, Preserved and Secure


Author:
John Willson
[ Edit | View ]
Date Posted: 13:21:00 01/22/05 Sat
The Believing Remnant, Preserved and Secure
John Willson

There has been much debate about the security of believers during this dispensation of Grace, but what about believers in the Old Testament, and during the Kingdom Age? By following the reference found in the Scofield Study Bible, we can trace the believing remnant of Israel, and draw some conclusions about the security of believers in other dispensations.

There has always been a remnant since the nation began with Abraham in Genesis 12. We refer to these people as the believing remnant because Romans 9:6-7 says,”…for they are not all Israel which are of Israel, neither, because they are of the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but in Isaac, shall Thy seen be called.” Throughout Israel’s history we see that the majority of this nation was unbelieving or as God said of them in Romans 10:21,”…a disobedient and gainsaying people.” However, there was always the believing few, as Paul states in Romans 11:5: “Even so at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.”

Elijah thought he was the only faithful one left in Israel, yet God said to him, “I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.” In Isaiah’s day the number may have been smaller, because Isiah 1:9 says, “Except the Lord of host had left unto us a very small remnant, we should have been as Sodom, and…Gomorrah.’ Isiah also prophesied the return of the future remnant during the seven-year tribulation (Isaiah 10:20-22). There are many references to the believing remnant throughout Isiah and Jeremiah, as there are in the other prophetical books. In the four Gospels we see the believing remnant in those who”… looked for redemption in Jerusalem” (Luke 2:36-38). These would be those like Simon, Anna, Zacharias and Elizabeth, Mary, John the Baptist and all those who believed God’s promises. The Lord referred to them as the little flock, for in Luke 12:32 He said, “Fear not, little flock, for it is your Father’s good pleasure to give you the Kingdom.”

Matthew 24 is a lengthy prophecy of the seven-year tribulation. It is addressed primarily to the believers who will be on earth at that time. Verses 3-12 speak of sorrows and persecutions, wars and famines. Then verse 13 says, “But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.” This will be the fulfillment of Zechariah 13:8-9, because they will be that third part of the nations brought through the fire of the tribulation. These verses read, “And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the LORD, two parts therein shall be cut off and die, but the third shall be left therein. And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried; they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people, and they shall say, The LORD is my God.

This verse in Matthew 24:13 does not mean that person must “endure to the end” or lose his salvation as some teach. This verse is saying that he that lasts or lives through that period will be saved through it and enter into the Kingdom. As God said, “And I will bring the third part through the fire…”

It is very possible that the prophecy of the 144,000 in Revelation 7:4 referring to this remnant. It reads, “…there were sealed an hundred and forty four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.” If they were sealed, they were secure, and it did not depend on their endurance. This is similar to the truth for us in Ephesians 4:30,”…ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.”

We know the believing remnant during Jesus’ ministry was secure as John 10:28 states:”…they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand” (see also verse 29). If these kingdom believers were safe and secure, those whom God will bring through the tribulation will be also.

This brings up the question of the security of all the Old Testament saints. There is no example of a true believer losing his salvation or fearing that he would lose it. Also there is no verse that indicates that these Old Testament saints had to maintain good works to remain saved. The word preserve as used in several Old Testament verses indicates the safety and security of God’s people.

Psalms 97:10—“He preserveth the souls of His saints…”
Psalms 37:28—“For the LORD…forsaketh not His, they are preserved forever…”
Psalms 145:20…”The LORD preserveth all them that love Him.”

Those whom the Lord knows are often called saints, meaning those HE has sanctified and set apart for Himself. Those kingdom saints were promised eternal life in the future Kingdom, and they knew that God would keep His promise. David’s confidence is expressed in Psalm 23:6, “Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life, and I will dwell in the house of the Lord forever.” Job was confident when he said, “I know that my Redeemer liveth, and that He shall stand at the latter day upon the earth…yet in my flesh shall I see God” (Job 19:25-26).

Tracing the remnant through the Bible in an interesting study, not only in the Old Testament and in the four gospels, but also through Acts. Also they are addressed in the Jewish-Christian epistles of James, Peter, and John. James writes to the twelve scattered abroad (James 1:1) and Peter addresses them as the strangers scattered (1 Peter 1:1). Then John writes of them often in the great prophecy of Revelation. The remnant was always a minority, even as true believers today are a small minority of the dispensation they are under.



Rightly Dividing The Truth Chart


For more information, please contact John Willson at: Grace Bible Courses, 407 W. Hickory Street, Neosho, MO 64850.
Subject: The Believing Remnant, Preserved and Secure


Author:
John Willson
[ Edit | View ]
Date Posted: 13:22:22 01/22/05 Sat
The Believing Remnant, Preserved and Secure
John Willson

There has been much debate about the security of believers during this dispensation of Grace, but what about believers in the Old Testament, and during the Kingdom Age? By following the reference found in the Scofield Study Bible, we can trace the believing remnant of Israel, and draw some conclusions about the security of believers in other dispensations.

There has always been a remnant since the nation began with Abraham in Genesis 12. We refer to these people as the believing remnant because Romans 9:6-7 says,”…for they are not all Israel which are of Israel, neither, because they are of the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but in Isaac, shall Thy seen be called.” Throughout Israel’s history we see that the majority of this nation was unbelieving or as God said of them in Romans 10:21,”…a disobedient and gainsaying people.” However, there was always the believing few, as Paul states in Romans 11:5: “Even so at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.”

Elijah thought he was the only faithful one left in Israel, yet God said to him, “I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.” In Isaiah’s day the number may have been smaller, because Isiah 1:9 says, “Except the Lord of host had left unto us a very small remnant, we should have been as Sodom, and…Gomorrah.’ Isiah also prophesied the return of the future remnant during the seven-year tribulation (Isaiah 10:20-22). There are many references to the believing remnant throughout Isiah and Jeremiah, as there are in the other prophetical books. In the four Gospels we see the believing remnant in those who”… looked for redemption in Jerusalem” (Luke 2:36-38). These would be those like Simon, Anna, Zacharias and Elizabeth, Mary, John the Baptist and all those who believed God’s promises. The Lord referred to them as the little flock, for in Luke 12:32 He said, “Fear not, little flock, for it is your Father’s good pleasure to give you the Kingdom.”

Matthew 24 is a lengthy prophecy of the seven-year tribulation. It is addressed primarily to the believers who will be on earth at that time. Verses 3-12 speak of sorrows and persecutions, wars and famines. Then verse 13 says, “But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.” This will be the fulfillment of Zechariah 13:8-9, because they will be that third part of the nations brought through the fire of the tribulation. These verses read, “And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the LORD, two parts therein shall be cut off and die, but the third shall be left therein. And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried; they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people, and they shall say, The LORD is my God.

This verse in Matthew 24:13 does not mean that person must “endure to the end” or lose his salvation as some teach. This verse is saying that he that lasts or lives through that period will be saved through it and enter into the Kingdom. As God said, “And I will bring the third part through the fire…”

It is very possible that the prophecy of the 144,000 in Revelation 7:4 referring to this remnant. It reads, “…there were sealed an hundred and forty four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.” If they were sealed, they were secure, and it did not depend on their endurance. This is similar to the truth for us in Ephesians 4:30,”…ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.”

We know the believing remnant during Jesus’ ministry was secure as John 10:28 states:”…they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand” (see also verse 29). If these kingdom believers were safe and secure, those whom God will bring through the tribulation will be also.

This brings up the question of the security of all the Old Testament saints. There is no example of a true believer losing his salvation or fearing that he would lose it. Also there is no verse that indicates that these Old Testament saints had to maintain good works to remain saved. The word preserve as used in several Old Testament verses indicates the safety and security of God’s people.

Psalms 97:10—“He preserveth the souls of His saints…”
Psalms 37:28—“For the LORD…forsaketh not His, they are preserved forever…”
Psalms 145:20…”The LORD preserveth all them that love Him.”

Those whom the Lord knows are often called saints, meaning those HE has sanctified and set apart for Himself. Those kingdom saints were promised eternal life in the future Kingdom, and they knew that God would keep His promise. David’s confidence is expressed in Psalm 23:6, “Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life, and I will dwell in the house of the Lord forever.” Job was confident when he said, “I know that my Redeemer liveth, and that He shall stand at the latter day upon the earth…yet in my flesh shall I see God” (Job 19:25-26).

Tracing the remnant through the Bible in an interesting study, not only in the Old Testament and in the four gospels, but also through Acts. Also they are addressed in the Jewish-Christian epistles of James, Peter, and John. James writes to the twelve scattered abroad (James 1:1) and Peter addresses them as the strangers scattered (1 Peter 1:1). Then John writes of them often in the great prophecy of Revelation. The remnant was always a minority, even as true believers today are a small minority of the dispensation they are under.



Rightly Dividing The Truth Chart


For more information, please contact John Willson at: Grace Bible Courses, 407 W. Hickory Street, Neosho, MO 64850.
Subject: voice of god


Author:
amideo
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Date Posted: 00:08:00 02/10/05 Thu
My name Amideo.I am elected for the great purpose.Some time back I tried to commit suicid, but at me have failed...I cut to myseif veins and laid on a snow bleeding profusely, four hours. First it was dark, then I have seen bright light which came narer to me witn impossible speed.Flash. I was lit up with bright white light and I have heard a voice of the god. He has told " your time has not come yet, come back in the world and execute my assigment. I allow to you authority. Suicide is a sin and I against it, but in the world there comes time of distemper Therefore I want to commute a penalty suicides, construct a temple in my honour. Let each person decided to commit suicide, before death will offer money for construction of a temple. Such soul will be innocent and after death of a body will find execution of desires".I at will of the god, begin construction of a great temple, it will be in Siberia because it should be far from a civilization.Death it not the end it only the beginning, and to everyone to solve what this beginning will be.

All wishing offer money can to make it on the bank account.
Please print out this information and give it in your bank:
SWIFT-SABRRUMM
The name of bank-SBERBANK
Number of the account-42307.840.1.4037.0000248
Subject: A Time 4 Honesty


Author:
Mr. Mugs
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Date Posted: 22:27:18 02/14/05 Mon
http://www.network54.com/Forum/350065
Subject: (Why.)


Author:
Ray
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Date Posted: 23:43:40 05/28/05 Sat
Why are Baptist forums so peluted with banning,the delete button and censorship???
Subject: (Jesus the Christ.)


Author:
Ray
[ Edit | View ]
Date Posted: 23:47:49 05/28/05 Sat
Not recorded to have ever written anything with no one on earth having any idea as to what he may have looked like.
Subject: Salvation FREE and Eternal


Author:
Cecil Spivey
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Date Posted: 12:33:17 06/08/05 Wed
Salvation FREE and Eternal
By – Cecil Spivey

But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: John 1:12

That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. John 3:15-18

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. John 5:24

My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.] My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. John 10:27-29

Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. John 14:6

Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved. Acts 4:12

Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins: And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses. Acts 13:38-39

And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house. Acts 16:31

But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. Romans 4:5

Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God. Romans 5:1

Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth. Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter. Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 8:33-39

That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Romans 10:9-10

And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work. Romans 11:6

Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve: 1 Cor. 15:1-5

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. Eph. 2:8-9

Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; Titus 3:5

These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God. 1 John 5:13

ONLY ONE CROSS FOR ALL DISPENSATIONS

Now it is quite true that God has different ages and dispensations and different programs with people but none of the dispensational or racial differences in any way affect the "gospel of Christ" that was foreordained for the salvation of any member of Adam's family that would "call upon the name of the Lord". Joel 2:32; Acts 2:21; Rom. 10:13; Acts 10:43; 15:10-11; 13:38-39. (Please honestly read these.) Though all penitent believers in Christ have His death baptism and His burial and resurrection put to their credit.

P. S.

If all the above Scriptures does not teach that the True Believer has Eternal life now and can not lose it. God’s word has no meaning. If you could loose Salvation, you could not be saved again no more than you can be born into the human family two times. You are born into the human family only once and you are born into God’s family only once.

Faith Alone in Christ Alone = Salvation
Subject: Your site was very informative,I love it many thanks!


Author:
Johan
[ Edit | View ]
Date Posted: 13:30:09 07/21/05 Thu
Your site was very informative,I love it many thanks!
creditcard
Subject: Getting Started


Author:
Horshack
[ Edit | View ]
Date Posted: 21:06:32 01/06/04 Tue
Welcome everyone,

This forum came from a discussion that Devin and I had concerning McLaren's book. I had already burned out on the pastorate and I am not even a pastor yet, but Devin recomended "A New Kind of Christian" to me and now I can see hope rather than discouragement.

Devin and I have been talking about new ways to do discipleship, especially with youth. I will post more extensively on this later, but for now if anyone would like to respond to this topic, it will help get things rolling.
[> Subject: Holy Spirit Novena


Author:
WW
[ Edit | View ]
Date Posted: 16:16:23 10/26/05 Wed
Holy Spirit,You who solve all problems,lights all roads so that I can attain my goal.You who gave me the devine gift to forgive and forget all evil against me and that in all instances of my life You are with me.I want this short prayer to thank You for all things as you confirm once and again that I never want to be separated from You, ever inspite of all material illusion, I wish to be with You in eternity.Thank You for your mercy toward me and mine.Amen (WW)Say this prayer for three consecutive days after which the prayer will be granted even if it may be difficult.The prayer most be published immediately after the favour is granted.Initials only.
>

>had concerning McLaren's book. I had already burned
>out on the pastorate and I am not even a pastor yet,
>but Devin recomended "A New Kind of Christian" to me
>and now I can see hope rather than discouragement.
>
> Devin and I have been talking about new ways to do
>discipleship, especially with youth. I will post more
>extensively on this later, but for now if anyone would
>like to respond to this topic, it will help get things
>rolling.
Subject: JESUS WAS A ONE-LEGGED DICKSUCKING BITCH


Author:
AND SO ARE YOU ASSHOLE
[ Edit | View ]
Date Posted: 10:20:30 02/29/04 Sun
:o )
[> Subject: Re: JESUS is the GREAT King


Author:
coco
[ Edit | View ]
Date Posted: 04:11:17 03/18/06 Sat
>:o )
you do not know Jesus...
i saw Jesus with my eyes, let me tell you..
in my dream i was walking on a pass with a really close friend,, i was playing and kidding with him,
then we arrived at a certain place, it was a camp, a HQ thing
then that friend of mmine went in, as i was standing outside,
one of the guard told me, " you know, you friend is the great man over here, when He come out here , you won't even be able to talk to him" i was there haveing a laugh, saying to myself , this guy i was just kidding with him on the way to this place what do you mean,...
then the Guy came out, He had changed his clothes, now He was wearing a doldier uniform, it was not like a general one, it was above all the army unfimor i even see, no amrican , no chinise, no russian or british general uniform could have macth it.
His unjiform was majesty as living as the very great Lion)
>i could not look at him, this time this Guy who were my friend to play with..
was walking before his great army, a very long a larg great army,,, that you can not count,,,
i stood there amazed by his power.
Jesus is a great King,,, ))):"
do not play with his Great Name..
for now He has mercy and He want you to come to repentance.
and accept him as Lord and saviour of your life,,
He is mighty and able to save you from any trouble
___I wake up from the dream and i thank god to have show me this thing
GOd bless you with love,,.
God loves, Jesus is full of grace...
i love with the love of God,,
Subject: free to read


Author:
deano formaro demon fighter
[ Edit | View ]
Date Posted: 20:04:22 04/27/06 Thu
go to www.demonwarriors.org read the testimony section its all free no adds nothing read how me and many others got free from demons and satan appeared yes the bid d himself its all true. jesus is lord
Subject: Enhance Your Relationships!! Passion Parties!!


Author:
Leticia
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Date Posted: 20:30:28 09/07/06 Thu
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Do not stifle the Holy Spirit. Do not scoff at prophecies, but test everything that is said. Hold on to what is good. Keep away from every kind of evil. 1 Thess. 5:19-22
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