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Date Posted: 18:47:26 04/22/05 Fri
Author: Ferris
Subject: 1 bad player

If you had one bad student who could not play or sing nearly as well as the other students to the point that htey ruined the whole sound of the band, what course of action should be taken. Can a conductor simply kick them out?

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[> Re: 1 bad player -- Brigid, 15:03:22 04/23/05 Sat [1]

Kicking them out of band/choir would be the direct opposite of what should be done. Find out if the student isn't succeeding because they are doing it on purpose or if they are having a true difficulty. If the student is playing badly as a misbehavior, the director should speak to the student and decide some consequences of further misbehavior. If the student is having a real difficulty, the director should take time to help the student through private meetings or recomending them to private lessons.

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[> Re: 1 bad player -- Chad, 18:34:41 04/27/05 Wed [1]

You cannot simply kick a student out of band due to their lacking ability in music. If you did such a thing, it is quite possible that you could ruin music for the pupil entirely. The best course of action that I'd recommend would be to privately instruct the student. If no improvement is made, certainly recommend another instrument, or implement techniques to better his/her voice. You can teach anything to anyone as long as you start at their level of understanding.

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[> Re: 1 bad player -- Cory Ridge, 11:31:36 01/30/06 Mon [1]

I do not think that kicking a student out of band or choir is ever really an option especially if the reason for it is the student cannot sing or play. A choir is a team effort and you are only going to be as good as your weakest singer or instrumentalist. This means that as educators and directors we need to make sure that the student or students in question can bridge the talent gap to come up to the level of the rest of the choir. This can be accomplished through private lessons or even just small sessions with a group of students. Also maybe let some of the students sit in front of the choir or section that they are in and let them hear what their part is supposed to sound like.

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[> Re: 1 bad player -- Sarah, 17:27:05 02/03/06 Fri [1]

The student should definitely not be kicked out. What the student needs is some private lessons, there is just not enough time in class to help this struggling student. With one on one time, the director can find out why this student is having problems and help fix them.

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[> Re: 1 bad player -- Derek, 11:08:04 02/04/06 Sat [1]

It's important to remember that nothing will ever sound perfect. Part of the joy people should get out of a concert is hearing all of the mistakes, ESPECIALLY at an earlier grade level. Even if the student never improves during private lessons, they should still be able to participate in the ensemble. Whoever it is will have a proud mother there at the concerts, simply because they gave it their best shot. Isn't that what band is all about? Strive for perfection, create excellent music, and make the parents proud?

I've worked with beginning band for a while during the summers now, and the surprising thing is that I've become attached to that "squaky, squeaky sound." If you expect a concert to go well, then that sort of a sound (from one player or the whole band) isn't too good. But if you have a less experienced band, part of the fun is simply listening on their level.

Band should give students a chance to develop their skills, whatever their previous capabilities are.

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[> Re: 1 bad player -- Kimberly, 13:19:12 02/05/06 Sun [1]

Lack of skills is definitely not a valid reason to dismiss a student from band, choir, or any other class for that matter. If a student was struggling in math, the teacher would definitely not say "You're not catching on quick enough. Out of my class!" Of course not. The only way to improve on something is constant practice and work. If this one student is falling behind, perhaps he or she is not getting the practice time outside of class that he or she needs. Maybe he or she is involved in many things and is having difficulty with time management, thus not devoting enough time to each activity. This student may need special attention to catch up with the rest of the group.

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[> [> Re: 1 bad player -- Patrick Clinage, 23:35:29 02/14/06 Tue [1]

with the no child left behind do we stop class and help out with the student or students that are having trouble or do we blow it off and keep going...

also if they are practicing all the time and you even see them practicing and they still aren't getting it what do we as teachers do?

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[> [> [> Re: 1 bad player -- Phil Payne, 07:07:08 04/11/06 Tue [1]

You could always suggest private lessons. Private lessons are a great alternative if you can't solve the problems yourself. As I have said before I work with a high school drumline and there is a player that had a lot of trouble and I didn't have enough time to really work with him with college and all so i suggested private lessons with someone. It has improved his playing ability greatly and he can read music and play it fairly well and he said that he enjoyed the lessons with the person.

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[> Re: 1 bad player -- Rita, 10:34:57 05/07/06 Sun [1]

Never, ever, ever, kick someone out of your ensemble for that reason. All singers/instrumentalists are not created equal. It's as simple as that. Where one might excel the other may not, and vice versa. But you should never discourage someone from taking part in music.

My co-op teacher has dealt with this issue while I was participating in my block this semester. He has a blind girl in the choir who learns everything by ear (obviously) and tends to sing louder then the other students, and sometimes off pitch. How he worked through it is to ask the her to come in 10 minutes before choir (which he works out with her aid) and plays everything for her and also reminds her of the dynamics. It really seemed to help.

But also there was one boy in the choir who was having trouble matching pitches. My co-op teacher brought him down during his study hall for almost a month and worked with him one on one, I even worked with the kid, but nothing really seemed to help. Did we kick him out? No. We still let him participate in the ensemble. The kid is trying, and as long as that effort is there, then let them go. Telling them that they can't do it is detrimental.

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[> Re: 1 bad player -- Dr. O., 08:15:53 05/12/06 Fri [1]

Sorry for this end-of-year message, but this has been a very interesting converstional thread, and you all seem to come down on one side of the argument, so I'll give the other side with a real-life example. I worked with a high school band last year, and while I was there the director took me aside and said that one of her flutists was coming to Heidelberg next year and intended to play in the band. She said, however, that the student was a special learner and couldn't actually play the instrument at all, but the director had let the student participate in high school band anyway. The director told me "All (the student) does is go 'hoo, hoo, hoo' into the flute, and doesn't actually play any notes." Sure enough, the student came to Heidelberg and auditioned for band this fall, and the director was completely accurate. The student couldn't actually play ANY notes or rhythms; of course, I had to tell the student that they didn't play at an appropriate level for a college band, but I appreciated their auditioning, etc. I was as nice as I know how to be (OK, maybe I don't really know how to be all that nice) but the student burst into tears, and has continued to glare at me every time I encounter him/her on campus all year, obviously thinking I didn't know what I was doing.

So, here is a student who participated in high school band, and I hope got something (although I don't know what) out of it. The student also left high school without an inkling that they couldn't actually play an instrument and it came as a rude surprise to discover it. Here is my question: given that all the private lessons in the world weren't going to help this student play the flute, was the student actually well served by their high school band experience? There are many non-musical advantages to music programs (social, discipline, developmental, etc.), but shouldn't the basis of our programs be about music? Shouldn't there be a place for students to fail at music (after diligent effort on the part of the teacher and student, but no success)? This is something to think about.
Dr. O.

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[> Re: 1 bad player -- Jessica Rigsby, 20:16:04 01/23/07 Tue [1]

I agree with Dr. Owen 100% (now how often will that really happen? haha) I too had a situation in a high school womens chorus where a girl with special needs some how wormed her way through the system and got into this permission only group. The director decided however not to hurt the students feelings by letting her try and sing with us. The end result was a sound I had never quite heard befor, kind of a low rumble under the beautiful melodies and harmonies being produced by the group. Needless to say, after a few days of this the director had to pull the girl aside and inform her that she simply could not be in his choir because she was so far behind the rest. He did however grant her permission to join our general chorus which was a come-all group that sang one "popular" song per concert. This, I think, was a good solution to the problem. Instead of removing a "bad" student all together, try just placing them in a lower ensemble if there is one available. If not talk to the student about private lessons, and let them know if they improve they can attempt to audition back into the group.

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[> Re: 1 bad player -- Amanda Chaney, 19:00:36 01/25/07 Thu [1]

I think that Dr. Owen and everyone else is right. I think that as music educators we should give everyone the chance to participate in music and to feel the emotions associated with the music. I think there is a point where if they haven't progressed through private instruction and are thinking about going further in the field of music (aka college) then something should be said to that student. If the student simply enjoys themself in the ensemble then I would allow them to perform with the general ensemble and let them be happy doing what they can in the group.

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[> Re: 1 bad player -- Jayme, 08:05:24 01/30/07 Tue [1]

I don't think that the conductor should immediately kick the student out. I think they should work with them and give them an ultamatum where they have a time limit to show some imporovement that would hold promise for the success of the group as a whole. Its not fair to kick a student out just because they don't understand how to perform at a higher level yet. The conductor should help them before taking such drastic measures.

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[> Re: 1 bad player -- Hayley Pletcher, 20:38:01 03/19/07 Mon [1]

The conductor should definately not kick the student out of the group. The student obviously wants to be in the ensemble, otherwise he/she would've quit already. I believe that the student should be offered lessons and if he/she does not improve, then an ultimatum should be brought about.

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[> Re: 1 bad player -- Amanda Jasko, 16:28:17 05/08/07 Tue [1]

I think that the student should not be kicked out. I believe that the director should pull the student aside and talk to them and see if there is something that could be done, such as lessons. If the student doesn't cooperate, then he or she should be kicked out. I don't think that a student who really wants to be there and tries should be asked to leave.

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[> Re: 1 bad player -- John Weber, 19:31:03 04/28/08 Mon [1]

One other thing to take into consideration is if the student even cares about thier skill level at all. Several students in my high school band took band class because it was an "easy A" and didn't care at all how well they performed. In that case, it wouldn't even be worth the effort to offer them lessons. I still wonder why they weren't just booted from the band. Maybe since there wzs no minimum bar for them to pass as far as auditions went, the director was forced by the higher-ups to let them stay in the program.

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[> Re: 1 bad player -- Tasia B, 20:23:36 04/28/08 Mon [1]

I've also had an encounter with a special needs student when I did student teaching at the middle school where I'm from. This kid wanted to play tuba in the high school marching band but couldn't play the instrument at all, and all the private lessons in the world didn't help him. So the band director and I tried many different instruments to see if any of them were easier for him to learn but he just couldn't do it. So we ended up telling him that he couldn't participate in a group with such a higher level then he was capable of (maybe in nicer terms lol) Well he was upset and his parents were upset too, and complained to the school that we were discriminating because he was a special needs kid. So in the end we had to let him in the marching band because of the school board. So we put him on axillary percussion on the side line..

So I guess my opinion on this, although I would love to remove bad players from my band, that just isn't allowed in most public high schools and middle schools. Everyone has to be treated equally in cases like that, which makes me confused because sports isn't that way, they are 'audition' based too...

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