More evidence about women in the early church -- ExUBF's Parlor

[ Show ]

Support VoyForums

[ Shrink ]

VoyForums Announcement: Programming and providing support for this service has been a labor of love since 1997. We are one of the few services online who values our users' privacy, and have never sold your information. We have even fought hard to defend your privacy in legal cases; however, we've done it with almost no financial support -- paying out of pocket to continue providing the service. Due to the issues imposed on us by advertisers, we also stopped hosting most ads on the forums many years ago. We hope you appreciate our efforts.

Show your support by donating any amount. (Note: We are still technically a for-profit company, so your contribution is not tax-deductible.) PayPal Acct: Feedback:

Donate to VoyForums (PayPal):

[ Login ] [ Contact Forum Admin ] [ Main index ] [ Post a new message ] [ Search | Check update time | Archives: [1], 2, 3, 4 ]

[ Next Thread | Previous Thread | Next Message | Previous Message ]

Date Posted: 17:01:26 04/02/05 Sat
Author: Anonymous
Subject: More evidence about women in the early church
In reply to: Mike K. 's message, "Re: Paul and women" on 11:38:47 03/19/05 Sat

I've lately been preoccupied with other things, but am now finding the time to get back to our discussion.

>We see that women were deacons, we see that they were
>in positions of caring for others, we see that they
>opened their houses for churches, but I lack the
>evidence that they were "local leaders".
>I wonder why Paul said "An elder must be husband of
>one wife...", I guess that means he also included
>lesbian elders?

I will for the point ignore your remark about lesbian elders. I will present evidence that women functioned as elders and leaders in early local churches:

The following women are mentioned as elders (presbytera, episcopa or some similar word):

A Bishop Theodora is mentioned in a mosaic in an early basilica.

Epiktas is mentioned as a presbytera in her epitaph, dating from 3rd - 4th century Greece.

An inscription dating from 2nd or 3rd century Egypt mentions, "Artemidoras fell asleep in the Lord, her mother Paniskianes being an elder."

Ammion was an elder in the 3rd century and was honored by Bishop Diogenes.

A female elder by the name of Kale is mentioned in 4th century Sicily.

These references come from WHEN WOMEN WERE PRIESTS by Torijesen.

>He mentions two women, Euodia and Syntche, as
>having preached the gospel "with Barnabas and me" in
>Philippians 4:2-3.
>Which means, they didn't act independently and most of
>all "preaching the Gospel" isn't what many people
>today make out of it. We're not talking Billy Graham
>"Campus Crusade" here, but maybe so small things as
>going to your neighbour and telling them a few
>sentences about Christ. That is the responsibility of
>all Christians, not just of "leaders".

>He also speaks of the prominent woman Phoebe by the
>title
>of both "deacon" and "prostasis" or leader, of her
>community."
>Romans 16 is a handful of greetings. This is the only
>verse mentioning Phoebe, and it only mentions "she is
>in the service of the church in Kenchrea", I think
>someone has a clergy-laity system here in mind,
>serving the church is by far NOT the same as church
>leadership, much less being a teacher. Like I said,
>opening your house is also a service to the Church, as
>is doing the dishes after the meeting. I'm not
>belittling the work of women, this kind of practical
>job is no less meaningful as any other: but it's NOT
>leadership!

I think you are belittling the efforts of these women. In his epistles Paul names seven women as "co-workers" or "hard workers." The Greek words are synergos and kopion. The seven are Euodia, Syntyche, Priscilla, Mary, Tryphena, Tryphosa, and Persis.

> and constantly refers to the husband and wife
>team, Priscilla and Aquila, as "Church leaders,"
>usually naming Priscilla first.
>
>
>This is digging deeper, but Priscilla and Aquila,
>while being devout Christians, were not "church
>leaders", but they opened their house for the church.
>If giving your house for a meeting is the same as
>being a leader, then one can buy a leadership position
>in the church with money. I know many people who think
>like that, but I'm sorry, that's at best heretical.
>Having a church meet in your home != you being a
>leader.

Come now, Mike. Priscilla and Aquila had a church that met regularly at their house. Do you think it was a Quaker meeting where everyone said whatever they wanted? More likely, someone led them in teaching, worship and prayer. Most likely Priscilla had a hand in this, seeing as how Paul always mentions her first. Also, Paul left Priscilla and Aquila to minister to the church in Ephesus (Acts 18:19). It would seem to me that this was a leadership role.

>He also speaks of the prominent woman Phoebe by the
>title
>of both "deacon" and "prostasis" or leader, of her
>community."
>Romans 16 is a handful of greetings. This is the only
>verse mentioning Phoebe, and it only mentions "she is
>in the service of the church in Kenchrea", I think
>someone has a clergy-laity system here in mind,
>serving the church is by far NOT the same as church
>leadership, much less being a teacher. Like I said,
>opening your house is also a service to the Church, as
>is doing the dishes after the meeting. I'm not
>belittling the work of women, this kind of practical
>job is no less meaningful as any other: but it's NOT
>leadership!

What is leadership, Mike? Leadership is a type of service. For what it's worth, every title of leadership used in the New Testament was applied to women within the first 3 centuries of the Church (according to written and archaeological evidence). This tidbit comes from WOMEN IN THE CHURCH by Grenz and Kjesbo.

>I think the author of said article resorted to a lot
>of stretches and had a totally twisted concept of
>leadership, but that's just my opinion.
>
>To sum it up shortly:
>serving != leading.

Mathematically speaking, leading is a subset of serving, so you are wrong.

I think you are resorting to a lot of stretches to maintain your point of view. And I would say that you have a twisted concept of leadership because you would deny that capacity to women for no reason.

Regards,
Anonymous ex-UBFer

[ Next Thread | Previous Thread | Next Message | Previous Message ]