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Date Posted: 09:16:43 03/06/06 Mon
Author: lump
Subject: WW(you)D
OK. I know I disagree as a parent with alot of you guys on some things (like the Nazi youth thread).
I volunteered in the kitchen at my son's school carnival Friday. People could either spend cash or the tickets the kids earned from game playing for food. Now keep in mind our school is the poorest school in the area.
Anyhow, I'm pretty sure I saw one little girl walk out with a pop she didn't pay for. I didn't have time to stop her - my hands were full of pizza and we had a huge line. But once it slowed down, this other little girl came in - grabbed a bag of chips and started to walk out. I stopped her and asked her if she paid for it. She said "I don't have any money." threw the chips back and ran out. She was planning on stealing the chips - she didn't run out upset. She ran out of fear. Anyhow, so the PTA guy I was working with said "Did you just turn that girl away?" "Yes, she was trying to steal a bag of potato chips." And then this guy continued to ridicule me in front of the other PTA people and the school principal for not just buying the girls chips for her. And later, 3 kids came in with hands full of prizes (candy) from the games. They wanted pizza, but they had spent all their money. The PTA guy bought it for them.
Now, I had given all my money to my son for him to spend. I didn't have the money to pay for the girls stuff anyway. AND, in doing so, I feel that she would have been taught that it's ok to steal. I will NEVER volunteer in the kitchen again.
What would you have done?
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Re: WW(you)D -- 23, 09:38:48 03/06/06 Mon [1]
Same as you.
If the PTA guy wants to buy stuff for kids, that's his perogative.
What did you say to him when he ridiculed you in front of the other people?
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Re: WW(you)D -- tg, 09:40:10 03/06/06 Mon [1]
I would have let her have the chips. I would feel awful if she didn't have any. I'm a pushover though but, I would have felt sorry for her and I wouldn't look at it as stealing, but that she couldn't afford it and it was a fun day so I would have let it go. I really don't think she was stealing either, not consciencelY (sp)or maybe someone told her to run up and get some. Sometimes I help out with the parent council and they do let things go like bounced checks for pizza lunches and such or they don't make you pay the service charge. It's because they want people to order again and not get turned off. It's also FOOD and I would never stop a kid escpecially from going without. never never, I get that from my grandmother.
Having the money to pay for it and if you don't have it, isn't the issue.
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Re: WW(you)D -- tg, 09:46:01 03/06/06 Mon [1]
I worked in a Department store in High School and once I saw this man with 3 small children walking out with a bag of diapers that I knew he didn't pay for, I said nothing. I realised that maybe he was doing it out of neccesity and I thought if he could afford them then he wouldn't be stealing. I didn't think getting arrested for shoplifting would help his family. I could have been wrong or right I don't know, maybe I judged him I don't know either. If he was stealing with his kids there he may have been desperate. Like I said I'm a pushover.
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Re: WW(you)D -- lump, 10:20:49 03/06/06 Mon [1]
Twan - nothing. I still pay my PTA dues and help when I can, but I don't go to the meetings anymore. First of all, I expected a group of people working WITH the teachers discussing important things. Ours is just a fundraiser. Then they also changed the meetings so that working parents CAN'T make it - 3:00. So being that I am not an active member I just said nothing. Maybe they have some kind of policy I'm not aware of or something.
TG - I can understand the diapers. But you don't think it's more important to teach a kid not to steal than it is for her to have a non-nutritous munchy food? Not to mention, most of the students are just now running out of food. Those on food stamps got their groceries on the 1st of the month.
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Re: WW(you)D -- tg, 10:32:53 03/06/06 Mon [1]
I would have gave it to her and told her the next time she has to pay $$$. I think she was made to feel like a thief, and it would have been better to maybe talk or have someone say something to her parents. You know I may be wrong, but it would be in my head that maybe it was the only thing she had to eat. Kids do live in poverty!! What was the cost a buck. (I'm not saying you pay for it) If the kid was wrong her parents should have been told.
I wouldn't give up the PTA either I would take it as the nature of the beast. I get pissed off at the parent council too, most of it is just fundraising and they are sooo disorganized.
The diaper incident I thought how wrong it was for this guy to steal with his children there and what if he got caught and that was part of the reason I said nothing.
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Re: WW(you)D -- lump, 11:03:07 03/06/06 Mon [1]
But she was being a thief.
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Re: WW(you)D -- tg, 11:16:30 03/06/06 Mon [1]
Well your story sounded more like you were convicting her without her story. Where were her parents?
I wasn't there.
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Re: WW(you)D -- 23, 11:17:20 03/06/06 Mon [1]
It would have been one thing if the kid had been asked. If she'd have said "I don't have any money, but I would really like some chips, please." Theivery + rudeness should not be rewarded under any circumstances, IMO.
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Re: WW(you)D -- tg, 11:19:26 03/06/06 Mon [1]
She's a kid Twan. Sometimes they have a hardtime communicating there actions and thoughts.
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Re: WW(you)D -- lump, 11:40:40 03/06/06 Mon [1]
I didn't see her parents, though there was a notice and automated phone call sent out saying that children were to be accompanied by parents or they would not be allowed to stay. There were so many people there.
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Re: WW(you)D -- tg, 11:48:11 03/06/06 Mon [1]
I am not making excuses for the child. I still don't think she was stealing.
If there were alot of people there maybe her parents didn't notice, but I would have asked my child where she/he got the chips and soda. Only, maybe they did and she told them it was given to her. It sounds like kids were running loose everywhere.
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Re: WW(you)D -- chrys, 12:05:30 03/06/06 Mon [1]
i'm with tg here, and esp on that last comment, that sometimes kids have trouble communicating, i think that's especially true if they are embarrassed about not having money. i can't say i really know b/c i always went to school in a relatively affluent (or pretending to be affluent) neighborhood and there weren't very many poor families there, but i also thought of, what if she didn't have anything else to eat. also sometimes parents won't give their kids money even if they have it, esp. if they don't have much. but i think a little talk with her might have been appropriate, like sitting down and saying, okay it is better to be honest and say you don't have the money and ask for something, than it is to try to just take it. my guess is she was probably ashamed of not having the $.
i once lived with someone who had a kid and would hardly ever get the kid food. it was awful. i was also poor and couldn't really help, and so was the ohter person we lived with, but that is why i said sometimes the parents don't spend the little money they have on their children, b/c it's true.
also don't think you had to buy it for her, that is not your job, neither is the talk really, but i don't think it would have killed the PTA to give a kid a bag of chips, or to have someone who is maybe more involved talk to her and maybe try to find out more about the situation in general.
as for the diaper thing, i would have let that go too. diapers are a necessity.. it would be one thing if it was CDs or a TV or expensive clothes, but diapers, well okay.
also, i used to work at a dept store awhile ago, and they had this "yes" policy. it had some flashy gimmicky name but i forgot what it was. anyway, there policy was that if someone came to customer service to return something, they would always say yes, even if the person didn't have a receipt or whatever the case may be (unless it was extreme like the same person coming in every week w/a buttload of clothes). they knew they could lose money doing that, BUT they were keeping the customer. that customer instead of feeling possibly turned away unfairly, would be encouraged that this was a place that would help you and would be left w/a good impression. yes some took advantage of that i'm sure, but when i worked there, in 02, while most stores in the same vein weren't upping their yearly profits, this one was, and they were one of the only chains that was.
i used to let ppl sneak in the movie theater i worked for, mostly b/c that place was so corrupt and the prices they charged were like highway robbery, lol.
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Re: WW(you)D -- 23, 13:22:55 03/06/06 Mon [1]
"She's a kid Twan. Sometimes they have a hardtime communicating there actions and thoughts."
Well, this sounds like a perfect opportunity to assist them with that. I don't see how turning a blind eye is a solution here. It reinforces all kinds of negative behavior.
It really sounds like mom and/or dad needed to get involved in the situation. Stealing is not something to just blow off and leave alone. Not a good pattern to start.
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Re: WW(you)D -- chrys, 14:04:48 03/06/06 Mon [1]
like i said, it could have been addressed w/a talk. if the kid was hungry and now feels bad, she still doesn't know how to communicate her needs. i think it's a really fair compromise b/w the ends of, she's a thief and oh just let her have it.
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Re: WW(you)D -- noslave, 15:31:28 03/06/06 Mon [1]
I would've told the guy to fuck off for starters.
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Re: WW(you)D -- Robert, 18:39:01 03/06/06 Mon [1]
Turning someone away is a lot different than helping them steal. That PTA guy is a douchebag. Someone should walk into his house and take his television...see how he likes the idea of turning people away.
"But PTA douchebag, that thief couldn't afford a television. Are you turning him away?"
It's P.C. fuckers like that who need a pick axe driven through their skulls.
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Re: WW(you)D -- tg, 20:44:25 03/06/06 Mon [1]
OK so the guy is a jerk, but THE KID WASN'T STEALING!! She is a little girl, who was taking something without asking; so tell her that. Explain it to her!
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Re: WW(you)D -- chico781, 23:08:29 03/06/06 Mon [1]
I think that you did the right thing. I understand how some might prefer to turn a blind eye since they're poorer kids but I honestly think this is a mistake. I think it's them we need to help develop their character. So, I definitely think I would have tried to talk to the girl about not stealing and I would have told those PTA bastards to fuck off.
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Re: WW(you)D -- Christian, 08:30:38 03/07/06 Tue [1]
TG you gotta be fucking kidding. You're making a heap of assumptions ("the kid wasn't stealing" etc) but even with those aside, you're missing the point that it's fundamentally wrong. Now Lump didn't call the cops, advise the school or drag her off to her parents like I probably would have, but if you honestly believe making excuses for this kind of behaviour is the right thing to do - you'd be doing this girl (and society in general) a disservice.
I remember being a young kid, maybe 5 years old shoplifting a sesame seed bar from my local corner store. Even then, before I was even in primary school, I knew I was doing the wrong thing. I was a fuckin poor kid and went hungry most days but so what??? That wouldn't have made it any more right.
You need to give kids more credit than you do, and if you believe you're helping anyone by making excuses and allowing them to absolve themselves of responsibility for their actions - then you're part of the problem and not part of the solution.
Lump - that PTA guy WAS an asshole and I probably woulda tore him a new one. You did the right thing and hopefully scared this girl out of the likelihood of doing it again.
C.
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Re: WW(you)D -- tg, 08:45:15 03/07/06 Tue [1]
I think you people are crazy if you don't think children do things without even thinking about their actions.Escpecially in an environment where they're running around and may be hyper. What Lump needed to do was not scare the kid into thinking she was doing something like staeling, but tell her she needed to go get a her parent(s) to pay for it. Then you have the parent there taking care of the situation. Did stealing that sesame seed bar turn you into a thief, NO it didn't. You knew right from wrong and you're not in prison right now are you? I think we need to give the kid the benefit of the doubt and we are the adults who have to tell or instruct kids into doing the right thing. I'm hardly defending her I'm just saying she didn't know, but we should tell her what she was doing wrong, without any judgemnet of her actions. Is that soo wrong? That's how we help children! I have a good understanding of the situation Christian.
The PTA guy I wouldn't have let him walk allover me either I would have told him it wasn't fair to have some kids paying for their items and others not. So if there was some policy about it I would hear it.
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Re: WW(you)D -- 23, 09:27:11 03/07/06 Tue [1]
So you're honestly trying to say that she didn't know she was stealing?
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Re: WW(you)D -- tg, 09:51:12 03/07/06 Tue [1]
I wasn't there but, YES I don't think she was stealing. I think she just went to get the chips and didn't know she had to pay for it. When she said she didn't have any money it's because she didn't, kids usually don't carry a wallet with them. That was the opportunity to tell her to go to her parents and ask them.
I am not going to argue about this endlessly, I have my theory and my opinion. If you all disagree with me then fine. I don't think the stigmatism of calling kids "Bad" or "a thief" works either, it only makes them feel that way forever. We need to steer them in the right direction and give them alternative options to situations they find themselves in.
My son was always getting into a situation with this other kid at recess. The other kid was always picking on him and I was getting calls about my son getting into fights with the boy. So I told Cameron that he will always look bad if he is fighting and if the boy starts on him again all he needs to do is go tell an adult, if he can't find one outside go directly inside and tell someone. That was an alternative to the situation that he wasn't aware of, guess what it WORKED! Kids need instruction, how else do they learn. So would it had been better to just say he's the bad boy who's always fighting? No and the girl is not a thief, she just didn't know she had to pay! I don't think I'm turning a blindeye.
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Re: WW(you)D -- lump, 10:00:17 03/07/06 Tue [1]
2 things:
Being that there was a line and a cash register at the end - she had to have known. And throwing the chips back and running would be a good indicator that indeed she did know.
You can't just pull peoples kids aside and have a talk with them - even for something important like this. Likely - at least in my demographic - there will be a pissed off parent waiting for you in the parking lot at the end of the night. Really. Most people on this website would be thoughtful about it. "Oh, she pulled my kid aside because he/she was stealing. What can I do about this bad behavior?" BUT in the real world it'd end up more like Jerry Springer. "I know you didn't accuse my daughter of stealing?" And confronting parents? Not in my neighborhood. In maybe a better community or a past time - that would be the Leave it to Beaver solution - but not now and today and here!
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Re: WW(you)D -- tg, 10:09:15 03/07/06 Tue [1]
I wasn't saying sitdown and have a chat with the child. Just tell her she needs to pay for it.It would be the same if she walked into a convenience store and the clerk said the same. If she says "I don't have any money" tell her to go to her parents. Simple.
I think she threw the chips down, not because she was stealing it but that you made her conscious of the fact that she would be. Difference.
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Re: WW(you)D -- lite, 10:12:54 03/07/06 Tue [1]
Ok. Now you got me imagining a food fight with pizza, chips and candy flying everywhere ;)
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Re: WW(you)D -- tg, 10:24:40 03/07/06 Tue [1]
BTW, I don't think it was the kid who was the problem, it was the dickwad PTA guy. That's something we can all agree on.
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Re: WW(you)D -- carson1, 17:00:20 03/08/06 Wed [1]
I have to agree with Twan on this one, Lump. I carefully read everyone's responses, and she needs to understand, regardless of her situation, stealing is wrong. I probably would have asked her where her mommy and daddy are, and told her that you would be happy to give her the chips if her parents came over with her to get them. That way they would have been informed that she was stealing them. She might have thought twice about stealing them. Like TG, I'm also a big softy, so I would have had a hard time doing it. I can't stand to see kids going without, but I do think it sends the wrong message that just because you may not have as much as the next guy, it's okay to take from him. I know plenty of poor folks who don't steal.
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Re: WW(you)D -- amadaun, 18:21:11 03/08/06 Wed [1]
Any kid of school age [5 and over]- which I presume she was, knows about paying for stuff, and knows what stealing is.
She would have to be sub-normal not to understand.
And she should be stopped - next time it might happen in a store, and it might be more serious. Starting a downward spiral at such a young age, is not a recipe for success.
Maybe the school could help identify any kids that are going short of food, and find some way to make something available to them?
I hope the PTA guy will enjoy volunteering in the kitchen next time- when you're not there, Lump. [I really hate helping the kitchen at fundraisers, -always try to avoid it like the plague]
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