VoyForums
[ Show ]
Support VoyForums
[ Shrink ]
VoyForums Announcement: Programming and providing support for this service has been a labor of love since 1997. We are one of the few services online who values our users' privacy, and have never sold your information. We have even fought hard to defend your privacy in legal cases; however, we've done it with almost no financial support -- paying out of pocket to continue providing the service. Due to the issues imposed on us by advertisers, we also stopped hosting most ads on the forums many years ago. We hope you appreciate our efforts.

Show your support by donating any amount. (Note: We are still technically a for-profit company, so your contribution is not tax-deductible.) PayPal Acct: Feedback:

Donate to VoyForums (PayPal):

Login ] [ Contact Forum Admin ] [ Main index ] [ Post a new message ] [ Search | Check update time | Archives: 1 ]


[ Next Thread | Previous Thread | Next Message | Previous Message ]

Date Posted: 17:59:49 09/07/12 Fri
Author: robin
Subject: 1) THE ALTERNATIVE MEANING OF DUKKHA : NOT RUNNING SMOOTHLY
In reply to: robin 's message, "version 1.0 : THE FOUR NOBLE TRUTHS - A NEW INTERPRETATION - SUMMARY and INTRODUCTION" on 15:38:53 09/07/12 Fri







1) THE ALTERNATIVE MEANING OF DUKKHA : NOT RUNNING SMOOTHLY


Part One - version 1.0 :

THE ALTERNATIVE MEANING OF DUKKHA : NOT RUNNING SMOOTHLY


Id like to talk about an alternative meaning in buddhas 4 noble truths, and id like to start with some ideas which i believe these days are commonly understood.


To listen well, to listen reliably and for the process of listening to run smoothly, we need many things, and one of these is we need to listen objectively ... free of any personal wishes about what we hear ...


Infact the slightest preference or inclination for or against what we hear, will influence how we hear the sound and how we understand it.


A preference is a pre-reference - psychologists talk of conditioning, we are talking about preconditions, preconceptions and expectations because these colour our sensing, perception and understanding.


To see well and reliably, we also need to be free of all preferences.


Now, i love how buddhism recognises 6 senses : the first 5 which we all know, and in buddhism the 6th, is the mind sensing thoughts ... there are many reasons for this, but one of the ways we can use the idea, is we can learn from hearing and seeing well, how to think well ... and so it follows and i believe most people would also agree that thinking only functions really well, runs smoothly and reliably, when one does this objectively and is free of all pre-references, preconceptions and preconditions.


And to conclude this introduction, i believe most people would also have no problem with the idea that all our preferences originate in feelings of pleasure or displeasure.


--------------------------


So now, we come to the tricky bit! What id like to point out is about the 2nd and 3rd noble truth. The 2nd and 3rd noble truth describe the origin and dissolution of DUKKHA (which according to almost all translations is "suffering", one translation uses "stress").


There are several points which make this text very hard to understand ... i can well imagine how many others have struggled over years trying to make sense of it.


Firstly, very simply it is very unfortunate that most translations talk of craving or greed, indicating only the extreme forms of desire - normally buddhism adresses all forms of desire, and even the slightest personal inclination or preference will prevent a fully spontaneous reaction, or the most creative or fulfilling experience ... most buddhists would surely agree that even the slightest personal wish or preference will influence mindfulness during meditation, ... or not?


Secondly, often completely unrecognisable in paraphrased translations, however the full text shows a 10 point list of the perceptual and conceptual process involved in each of the 6 senses. (this process and the 3 forms of desire are discussed in PART 2)


In summary what the 2nd and 3rd noble truth actually say is : wherever there are pleasurable things, there this craving can arise or be abandoned; - and this idea is apllied to the sensing process of each of the senses.


And the 2nd and 3rd noble truth are called : the origination and dissolution of DUKKHA


And now, the main point of this first part : lets look at this word: DUKKHA : our source is Pali - and these days in the wikipedia (July 2012) when we look under "dukkha" it is translated as "suffering", "unsatisfactory", "unease", "anxiety", or "dissatisfaction"


However what i find interesting is under the etymology : where it says:


"The ancient Aryans who brought the Sanskrit language to India were a nomadic, horse- and cattle-breeding people who travelled in horse- or ox-drawn vehicles. Su and dus are prefixes indicating good or bad. The word kha, in later Sanskrit meaning "sky," "ether," or "space," was originally the word for "hole," particularly an axle hole of one of the Aryan's vehicles. Thus sukha … meant, originally, "having a good axle hole," while duhkha meant "having a poor axle hole," ... "


So, dukkha originally refered to the efficiency or inefficiency of the axle and axle hole ... the effect of which may be discomfort or suffering or not getting there on time or breaking down on the way.


So, Buddha, maybe made a comparison with a simple wheel axle, so very important for everyday life in those days, and though i am no expert, it seems such simple axles have existed since around 3,000BC (Buddha lived 500BC), ... i can only imagine these simple axles needed a craftsman who knew which woods to use and how to cut them so they would last for years, and to reduce the friction probably good axles had metal coatings with animal grease to run smoothly ... then these days axles with ball bearings are the least of our transport problems - in those days to get the axle running smoothly was the only really important thing.


I am not an expert on languages ... however what appears clear, is one sense of what budddha may be asking us to do, in modern terms, is simply to get things running smoothly.


------------------------


And this gives a whole new possibility in the meaning of the 2nd and 3rd noble truth : an idea which to the modern mind seems almost commonly understood as having something to do with scientific objectivity; but 2,500 years ago it would have been revolutionary : that the origination and dissolution of dukkha (things not running smoothly) is any little or big preconditioning preference, which influences any one of the senses, at any stage of the sensing process.


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Now, another interesting point is that if there are 2 perspectives on a subject, then there are usually 3 or 4 more which could also be valid ... eg could Buddha have intended a double meaning ?





[ Next Thread | Previous Thread | Next Message | Previous Message ]


Replies:


Post a message:
This forum requires an account to post.
[ Create Account ]
[ Login ]
[ Contact Forum Admin ]


Forum timezone: GMT-8
VF Version: 3.00b, ConfDB:
Before posting please read our privacy policy.
VoyForums(tm) is a Free Service from Voyager Info-Systems.
Copyright © 1998-2019 Voyager Info-Systems. All Rights Reserved.