[ Show ]
Support VoyForums
[ Shrink ]
VoyForums Announcement:
Programming and providing support for this service has been a labor
of love since 1997. We are one of the few services online who values our users'
privacy, and have never sold your information. We have even fought hard to defend your
privacy in legal cases; however, we've done it with almost no financial support -- paying out of pocket
to continue providing the service. Due to the issues imposed on us by advertisers, we
also stopped hosting most ads on the forums many years ago. We hope you appreciate our efforts.
Show your support by donating any amount. (Note: We are still technically a for-profit company, so your
contribution is not tax-deductible.)
PayPal Acct: 
Feedback: 
Donate to VoyForums (PayPal):
[ Next Thread |
Previous Thread |
Next Message |
Previous Message ]
Date Posted: 10/11/15 10:59:46pm Sun
Author: The Future
Subject: The Ivy League
In reply to:
pigskin
's message, "Re: Football Coaching Complaints" on 10/11/15 9:41:00pm Sun
This New York Times Article about the Ivies having effectively gone scholarship in sports is from 2011. That puts them years ahead of the Patriot League in terms of giving scholarships to football players.
http://mobile.nytimes.com/2011/12/23/sports/financial-aid-changes-game-as-sports-teams-in-ivies-rise.html?referer=&_r=0
Harvard is 25-1 over the past three seasons.
Yale beat Army last year.
No one has come within 21 points of an undefeated Dartmouth.
Princeton is also undefeated and will most likely finish third or fourth in the league. They beat Lafayette and Lehigh by a combined score of 92-33.
Ivy league football is the best its been in decades and will continue to improve. it is scholarship football with more scholarships than any schools other than the service academies.
Colgate has 45 scholarship players. None of them are seniors. Two of the best seniors in a thin senior class are out with injuries. Kids get better and stronger they are the older they are and the longer they play.
The Ivies got a jump on scholarships. Fordham got a jump on scholarships. The NEC has had scholarships for years. The CAA has had scholarships for decades. Colgate has had scholarships for 2.5 years and is playing catch up. I don't think there would be the level of frustration if all of the FCS games Colgate has played hadn't been winnable--which means the current team can win.
Colgate has a strong tradition of starting slowly and finishing with championships. That can happen here. These aren't guys getting beaten up or too slow to play with other teams. The QB is really coming into his own. There are very good receivers and a huge TE who presents a big problem anytime he is thrown the ball while moving forward. The defense doesn't give up huge plays. The pieces are there to win a lot of games. They just have to do it.
[
Next Thread |
Previous Thread |
Next Message |
Previous Message
]
Replies:
[> [> [> [>
Re: The Ivy League -- Steve, 10/12/15 6:47:09am Mon
>This New York Times Article about the Ivies having
>effectively gone scholarship in sports is from 2011.
>That puts them years ahead of the Patriot League in
>terms of giving scholarships to football players.
>
>
>href="http://mobile.nytimes.com/2011/12/23/sports/finan
>cial-aid-changes-game-as-sports-teams-in-ivies-rise.htm
>l?referer=&_r=0">http://mobile.nytimes.com/2011/12/23/s
>ports/financial-aid-changes-game-as-sports-teams-in-ivi
>es-rise.html?referer=&_r=0
>
>Harvard is 25-1 over the past three seasons.
>
>Yale beat Army last year.
>
>No one has come within 21 points of an undefeated
>Dartmouth.
>
>Princeton is also undefeated and will most likely
>finish third or fourth in the league. They beat
>Lafayette and Lehigh by a combined score of 92-33.
>
>Ivy league football is the best its been in decades
>and will continue to improve. it is scholarship
>football with more scholarships than any schools other
>than the service academies.
>
>Colgate has 45 scholarship players. None of them are
>seniors. Two of the best seniors in a thin senior
>class are out with injuries. Kids get better and
>stronger they are the older they are and the longer
>they play.
>
>The Ivies got a jump on scholarships. Fordham got a
>jump on scholarships. The NEC has had scholarships for
>years. The CAA has had scholarships for decades.
>Colgate has had scholarships for 2.5 years and is
>playing catch up. I don't think there would be the
>level of frustration if all of the FCS games Colgate
>has played hadn't been winnable--which means the
>current team can win.
>
>Colgate has a strong tradition of starting slowly and
>finishing with championships. That can happen here.
>These aren't guys getting beaten up or too slow to
>play with other teams. The QB is really coming into
>his own. There are very good receivers and a huge TE
>who presents a big problem anytime he is thrown the
>ball while moving forward. The defense doesn't give up
>huge plays. The pieces are there to win a lot of
>games. They just have to do it.
Thank you, The Future, for some context. It's the context
that moves discussions about the past and the future forward. With it I wonder where certain people get the idea
that they assert of "Colgate should win 80%" of Ivy games.
Maybe they don't know what they believe but just want to believe it? Strange that.
No, I am not a coach or player but I am pretty confident I have shown my true colors by remaining consistent with my support of the team. I don't contradict myself and I am happy to slough off suggestions made to the contrary which, incidentally, haven't been corroborated with that context bug bear.
I like the idea expressed above "Colgate has a strong tradition of starting slowly and finishing with championships. That can happen here." I agree and would hasten to add that having taken down HC we have a full sleight of PL games to fight for.
If you have ever managed a bunch of people in an enterprise you know that remaining positive and resourceful are core requirements for success. It applies to an athletics program as well. I mean, who wants to work for or with a moaner?
Go 'gate!
[ Edit | View ]
[> [> [> [> [>
Re: The Ivy League -- agatefan, 10/12/15 7:56:38am Mon
>If you have ever managed a bunch of people in an
>enterprise you know that remaining positive and
>resourceful are core requirements for success. It
>applies to an athletics program as well. I mean, who
>wants to work for or with a moaner?
>
>Go 'gate!
sorry! I did not realize that you were managing the team!!! good luck!
and 4 - 2 in the PL = a 5 & 6 record ANOTHER losing season
I nor I doubt anyone else posting is hoping for that result or worse but instead a winning record and a PL tiltle....so far not looking very promosing....hope they win out but.....
[ Edit | View ]
[> [> [> [> [> [>
Re: The Ivy League -- Steve, 10/12/15 8:33:49am Mon
>>If you have ever managed a bunch of people in an
>>enterprise you know that remaining positive and
>>resourceful are core requirements for success. It
>>applies to an athletics program as well. I mean, who
>>wants to work for or with a moaner?
>>
>>Go 'gate!
>
>sorry! I did not realize that you were managing the
>team!!! good luck!
>and 4 - 2 in the PL = a 5 & 6 record ANOTHER losing
>season
>I nor I doubt anyone else posting is hoping for that
>result or worse but instead a winning record and a PL
>tiltle....so far not looking very promosing....hope
>they win out but.....
You remain somewhat confused about who manages the football team. It's the coaching staff, not me. I was only talking about team building, management skills, and the attitude that leaders use to drive and sustain successful teams.
Never mind. Maybe you should unclutter your agenda and focus on what's really important to you.
Go 'gate!
[ Edit | View ]
[> [> [> [> [> [> [>
Re: The Ivy League -- agatefan, 10/12/15 8:51:30am Mon
>
>You remain somewhat confused about who manages the
>football team. It's the coaching staff, not me. I was
>only talking about team building, management skills,
>and the attitude that leaders use to drive and sustain
>successful teams.
>
>Never mind. Maybe you should unclutter your agenda and
>focus on what's really important to you.
>
>Go 'gate!
actually I'm rather clear on this: since neither you or I manage the team your point is pointless
but, thanks for the advice
[ Edit | View ]
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>
Re: The Ivy League -- gatefan, 10/12/15 9:11:36am Mon
Game Stats
COLGATE
PRIN
First Downs
21 35
Total Offensive Yards
Gate Tigers
436 556
Passing Yards
318 311
Rushing Yards
118 245
Princeton had their top 2 RB's out
[ Edit | View ]
[> [> [> [>
Re: The Ivy League -- Tunkmaster, 10/12/15 11:35:35am Mon
The Ivies cannot exceed the financial aid limits for each sport. So, for example, all the aid they give football players, whether it's called need based or merit, cannot exceed the equivalent of 63 full scholarships. Now at the FCS level aid can be spread among more than 63 players (but no more than 85 "counters"), but the total amount can't exceed the 63 scholarship limit. So the Ivies can't have 100 football players receiving financial aid.
To say the Patriot League is behind the Ivy League in this somewhat stretches the point. Colgate was giving close to the NCAA maximum in aid to football players prior to scholarships. It was called need-based aid then. I've seen numbers that estimated football player aid at between 50 and 60 scholarship equivalents. Indeed, instituting merit aid for football was an easy transition financially for Colgate since the need-based aid went away and was replaced by merit aid almost dollar-for-dollar. In effect, the name of the aid was changed. It was a more difficult transition for other league members.
That scholarships haven't shown a noticeable improvement in athletic success, yet, is understandable given the above. As RichH notes elsewhere in this thread, Patriot League coaches probably haven't yet figured out how to use scholarships effectively to get players who are superior to those we had pre-scholarship.
[ Edit | View ]
[> [> [> [> [>
Re: The Ivy League -- The Future, 10/12/15 12:22:05pm Mon
Tunkmaster,
You are right and I am wrong. I got fired up about the idea of the Ivies circumventing scholarship rules by giving everyone scholarships. This is not my first time doing this and it's not your first time correcting me. I blame the defense.
Here is the current list of what each Ivy league school offers in terms of aid:
http://www.businessinsider.com/congrats-you-got-into-the-school-of-your-dreams-now-its-time-to-think-about-how-to-pay-for-it-2015-4
I continue to want to assume that having financial aid being universal for students of families making under $65,000, doesn't count towards athletic scholarships. I am still wrong.
The conspiracy theorist in me can't help but imagine the Ivies going to a "Suggested Donation" for tuition as the next step in the great "How We Can Win Sports Championships While Saying We Don't Offer Athletic Scholarships Ruse of the 21st Century."
[ Edit | View ]
[> [> [> [> [> [>
Re: The Ivy League -- Tunkmaster, 10/12/15 12:54:57pm Mon
>The conspiracy theorist in me can't help but imagine
>the Ivies going to a "Suggested Donation" for tuition
>as the next step in the great "How We Can Win Sports
>Championships While Saying We Don't Offer Athletic
>Scholarships Ruse of the 21st Century."
Wouldn't surprise me at all if that happened.
[ Edit | View ]
[> [> [> [> [>
Re: The Ivy League -- RichH, 10/12/15 12:47:59pm Mon
>The Ivies cannot exceed the financial aid limits for
>each sport. So, for example, all the aid they give
>football players, whether it's called need based or
>merit, cannot exceed the equivalent of 63 full
>scholarships. Now at the FCS level aid can be spread
>among more than 63 players (but no more than 85
>"counters"), but the total amount can't exceed the 63
>scholarship limit. So the Ivies can't have 100
>football players receiving financial aid.
>
>To say the Patriot League is behind the Ivy League in
>this somewhat stretches the point. Colgate was giving
>close to the NCAA maximum in aid to football players
>prior to scholarships. It was called need-based aid
>then. I've seen numbers that estimated football player
>aid at between 50 and 60 scholarship equivalents.
>Indeed, instituting merit aid for football was an easy
>transition financially for Colgate since the
>need-based aid went away and was replaced by merit aid
>almost dollar-for-dollar. In effect, the name of the
>aid was changed. It was a more difficult transition
>for other league members.
>
>That scholarships haven't shown a noticeable
>improvement in athletic success, yet, is
>understandable given the above. As RichH notes
>elsewhere in this thread, Patriot League coaches
>probably haven't yet figured out how to use
>scholarships effectively to get players who are
>superior to those we had pre-scholarship.
The Ivies are exempted per NCAA agreement from equivalency cap of 63. The only limit on recruiting is a 30 per year rolling average recruit classes. The exemption has remained in place under the rationale that ALL qualifying students get the exact same grants. It does not mean that all football recruits get full rides or even any aid at all. However,it is fair to conclude that HYP have more players receiving aid than any PL team. Whether this will change given the changes in Ivy aid to their students remains to be seen.
[ Edit | View ]
[> [> [> [> [> [>
Re: The Ivy League -- The Future, 10/12/15 1:14:08pm Mon
RichH to the rescue!!!
I knew it wasn't the defense!!!!!!!!!!
[ Edit | View ]
[> [> [> [> [> [>
Re: The Ivy League -- Tunkmaster, 10/12/15 4:04:02pm Mon
Is that a special agreement with the Ivy League or is it just the application of an existing rule? The Ivy Agreement, which was between the Ivy schools, was revised about 10 years ago to reduce the number of recruited football players to 120 or a max of 30/year, among other revisions.
NCAA Rule 15.5.1.1
Football or Basketball, Varsity Competition. In football or basketball, a student-athlete who was recruited (see Bylaw 15.02.8) by the awarding institution and who receives institutional financial aid
(as set forth in Bylaw 15.02.4.2) granted without regard in any degree to athletics ability does not have to be counted
until the student-athlete engages in varsity intercollegiate competition (as opposed to freshman, B-team, subvarsity, intramural or club competition) in those sports.
So, it seems to me that since all Ivy aid is non-athletic, Ivy teams can stick players on their JV teams and the aid won't count toward NCAA limits until the player actually gets to varsity and the team that lines up on the field on Saturday is still limited to 63 equivalencies. Correct?
[ Edit | View ]
[> [> [> [> [>
Re: The Ivy League -- RichH, 10/12/15 1:30:24pm Mon
It should be noted that the same exemption afforded the Ivies also applies in the same way to the service academies.
[ Edit | View ]
[> [> [> [>
Re: The Ivy League -- Gate Raider, 10/12/15 1:10:33pm Mon
I believe Colgate has an advantage over the ivy league in the AI, although it might be slight. I suspect the AI at ivy schools are higher than that of Colgate. That translates to a larger pool of recruits for Colgate and the rest of the PL.
[ Edit | View ]
[> [> [> [> [>
Re: The Ivy League -- RichH, 10/12/15 1:20:30pm Mon
>I believe Colgate has an advantage over the ivy league
>in the AI, although it might be slight. I suspect the
>AI at ivy schools are higher than that of Colgate.
>That translates to a larger pool of recruits for
>Colgate and the rest of the PL.
AI computation not identical between PL ans IL. Generally speaking ,you are correct. I am aware of a few situations at Lehigh and 1 other PL where a recruit was not admitted and went onto an Ivy.
[ Edit | View ]
[ Contact Forum Admin ]
Forum timezone: GMT-5
VF Version: 3.00b, ConfDB:
Before posting please read our privacy policy.
VoyForums(tm) is a Free Service from Voyager Info-Systems.
Copyright © 1998-2019 Voyager Info-Systems. All Rights Reserved.
|
|
