RE: -- Fishers Of Men -- Philosophy Forum

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Date Posted: 09:45:12 10/13/99 Wed
Author: Alex
Subject: RE:
In reply to: Gabriel 's message, "Re: frustrated" on 20:09:18 10/12/99 Tue

You're (of course) right, and I was very wrong. JC didn't take away punishment.

What I really meant: If I commit a sin in my life, I don't have to punish *myself* to get right with God. I live for God, but don't make deals with him. AFAIK in the OT people had to make rituals and sacrifices to get even with God. With Jesus this is not necessary anymore, as he took our sins.

JC said, if a brother sins, forgive him, as long as he repents these sins. (Luke 17:3-4) There's no word about punishing this brother, or self-punishing.

(Should I get a new translation? New Bibles should be "politically correct" and write "brother or sister". )

> (death is a punishment for original sin). What He DID
> do was forgive us for our sins and atone for the
> eternal punishment (hell) of our sins. But the
> temporal punihsments still remain.

Very right. I knew I wrote nonsense just the moment I sent it. I should get more information before I write something, or dare to argue with you. :-)

That's why Paul
> said: "I now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and
> fill up in my flesh what is lacking in the afflictions
> of Christ, for the sake of His Body, which is the
> Church." (Col 1:24)

Paul didn't had it easy. All he wanted to do is to teach the message, but what did he get in return? He had to suffer a lot (as the world hated him, as it hates us), but still he rejoiced in this. Because of his sufferings the church could grow.

I also read the amazing book "For this cross I'll kill you" by Bruce Olson. It's about a young person (called Bruce Olson, duh!) who finds to JC, and gets the longing to be missionary for a pretty hostile tribe, living in Amazonas rain forest. So, he traveled there without a.) speaking the language b.) missionary schooling/experience c.) anything, but just faith (and quite some opposition from "real" missionaries). The things he experienced and had to suffer with were not nice at all, and several times he almost died, but he never stopped believing in God and in the end, he created something wonderful there.

> Notice that Paul goes even so far
> as to mention something "lacking in the afflictions of
> Christ"-- a truthful phrase that even I, a Catholic
> who believes in Purgatory, might be reluctant to admit.

Usually, people lived quite some time once they were crucified. To speed up the process, their legs got broken so their own weight dragged them down. This wasn't done to JC. Still, he died after a very short time.

JC did not look forward to his death (Luke 22:42), but it was necessary. IMHO he couldn't stand it being seperated from his father, and died of a broken heart.

JC had to endure a lot of things, but never complained. Only once. I guess nobody can understand the pain and hurt JC had to suffer.... for us.

~

Well, I thought about your comments about "Faith alone doesn't save". I've looked a bit in the Bible and came up with following:

Luke 23:39 NIV
(39)One of the crimininals who hung there hurled insults at him: "Aren't you the Christ? Save yourself and us!"
(40)But the other criminial rebuked him. "Don't you fear God, " he said, "since you are under the same sentence. (41)We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve. But this man has done nothing wrong."
(42) Then he said, "Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom."
(43) Jesus answered him, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise."

For me, pure faith verse saved this criminal.

Same story, told twice:

Mark 2:5 NIV
When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralytic, "Son, your sins are forgiven".

Luke 5:20 NIV
When Jesus saw their faith, he said, "Friend, your sins are forgiven".

JC didn't say "You're healed" but said "Your sins are forgiven" which brought opposition from Jewish leaders at once, as blasphemy was a sin for them, punished with death.

JC forgave sin first. Then he healed. (Mark 2:11, Luke 5:24)

Well, that's it. Please tell me what you think of it. I'd appreciate your comments.

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