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Date Posted: Sunday, February 10, 07:19:04pm
Author: ear to the pavement
Subject: Re: Ballgame
In reply to: oldtimer#1 's message, "Ballgame" on Sunday, February 10, 05:45:10pm

Rumors are the PRES. is going to give Dunne a 3 year new deal so that he gets 6 years to show what he can do. A new A.D. will have to accept that as a condition of the hire if he wants the job.Remember Stein extended Blind after his second season and he got a full five years the school basically swallowing the last year of his contract when he was fired. Looks like the same old same old at SPC.
Dunne is a nice man who works hard but don't see any reason to give him more than a one year extension so that a new A.D. can evaluate him after he gets here. Why saddle the new guy with a coach who is now 10-44 lifetime for at least the first four years of his job.
Also hear they are looking strictly at high school players not at JUCO for a quick fix.That fits in with the rumor he has 4 more years to turn this around.

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Replies:

[> [> Re: Ballgame -- Cindy Crawford, Sunday, February 10, 07:52:14pm [1]

If that rumor were true,rather than feeling he was saddled with a coach with whom he was not satisfied,I would think that the new AD would feel relieved.
First the pressure to win would not be on him,since the coach's extension was "imposed "upon him.
Second it would define an administration that was patient. Why would the AD worry about his security if the President was patient with his basketball coach.
At another school,one would not only have to worry about his performance,but the success of those under him.If what you say is then true,this position would appeal to many,as long as they don't have higher aspirations.

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[> [> [> Re: Ballgame -- loyal, Sunday, February 10, 08:26:50pm [1]

I want Dunne to succeed as much as anyone.

Giving Dunne a three year extension off of this year's performance, however, is something even John Dunne's mother wouldn't do. :>(

If we want the new AD to earn his or her stripes (why wouldn't we?) let them make a decision on the coach's job based on Dunne's results next season....record, player improvement, etc.

Since when did accountability become a four letter word?

That is one loopy idea, surpassed only by its rationalization.

Again, I hope JD succeeds.....but why not put pressure on him to do so???? Because we love "good practices"?????????

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[> [> [> Re: Ballgame -- Cindy Crawford, Sunday, February 10, 09:20:24pm [1]

Just one thing I'm really not clear on. Do you believe that anyone can put any more pressure on the coach than he is already putting on himself?
I'm sure he is not oblivious to the record, and say what you will about the effectiveness so far of his technique,I seriously doubt he can work any harder than he is.Added pressure is not likely to do any good.

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[> [> [> [> Re: Ballgame -- Coach Knight, Monday, February 11, 12:49:49pm [1]

Cindy as usual you live in LA LA Land. That was a very stupid comment about "added pressure not doing any good".

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[> [> [> [> Re: Ballgame -- Cindy Crawford, Monday, February 11, 08:44:35pm [1]

It worked splendidly for you I understand.

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[> [> Re: Ballgame -- SPC Fan, Sunday, February 10, 09:02:40pm [1]

Have to agree with your assesment Loyal. I do think he should get one year extension so that he is working on two year contract when the new AD takes over.It would put undue pressure on both the coach and new AD to leave him as a lame duck in the new AD's first year.Would have to hurt recruiting as well if he were on his last year next year.

That would be fair way to handle it without putting undue pressure on both the coach and the new AD to make a move next year.I would think during the season the new AD could evaluate the situation and make a decision as to whether he wants to extend or not. Also coach at least would have a second year for some protection if the new AD decides he wants a change.

I would think a 3 year extension puts a new AD in a bind since we know the school will not eat more than max one year based on finances if that.If someone feels he is "stuck with another man's choice at the school's only high profile sport for 4 years i would have to think that constriction severely hampers him and would definitely curtail the amount of candidates and quality of candidates for the job.

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[> [> [> Re: Ballgame -- figgyprez, Sunday, February 10, 09:12:24pm [1]

If we accept the idea that SPC is more than just this year's recruits away from competitive, then you can't put the coach in a situation where he is recruiting next year without a contract. He won't have a snowball's chance. Like it or not, and I like JD a lot, he must be given 5 or 6 years to get SPC to a challenging position in the MAAC. This is really year one for the coach if you acept the idea that last yaer was a tear down that was needed. He needs 2 more classes to see whjat he can do anything less is unrealisitic and unfair.

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[> [> [> [> Re: Ballgame -- loyal, Sunday, February 10, 09:42:21pm [1]

Here's my concern and why I think extending now represents a RISK WE DON'T NEED TO TAKE:

I saw zero development/progress this year from Todd, Raul or Akeem....for whatever reason.

Bacon, Costner, Lampley, Hogga, Jenkins and Leon (and Gooding) need to take significant strides next year. If they are as talented as most of us believe, that will happen...but, there is no guarantee.

If we don't extend, we are possibly compromising the activity with the remaining two scholarships for this year only......(spring signees at that).......which is a preferable risk vs. POSSIBLY locking in a coach who MAY not be able to develop players.

In summary, I'd be willing to potentially compromise two spring scholarhips this year in order to confirm I have a head coach who can develop players. Dunne has not proven that; in my book (worth little) he needs to do so next season.

If we come close to .500 next year and many players make individual progress, extend JD.....no problem. If this years frosh fail to show much improvement (Todd, Raul and Akeem this season)....and we have another "play in" MAAC finish....well, I doubt any of us would be eager for the status quo...right?

We risk very little keeping our options open....and can avoid locking in a coach until he has proven he can develop players. It's the smart thing to do, I think. Certainly, no one is going to be beating down the door to hire JD away.

I hear the counter arguments, let's just agree to disagree.

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[> [> [> [> [> Re: Ballgame -- oldtimer#1, Sunday, February 10, 11:07:58pm [1]

I look at John Dunne and see most of the attributes that I would want in a basketball coach at SPC. Young, hungry, hard worker, excellent basketball background, knowledgeable, able to recruit etc. The obvious missing ingredient is to produce a winning team.




Would I choose to role the dice and start over again and again and again looking for that basketball genius that Manhattan, Cansius and dozens of other D1 teams have not been able to find. With this guy, I'd rather stay a little late at the party then leave early only to be disappointed in the next saviour.




Are we that naive to think that if John can't do it that we'll immediately hire the right guy who can. To me that will be just another crapshoot and we'll wind up debating the exact same isues we're debating now.



Finally, the new AD will primarily be judged by how he/she handles all the administrative day to day operations in a Department that is understaffed and underbudgeted. Although many of us would like to think so, the success of men's basketball will be the least of the headaches that the newcomer will encounter and will have little to do with his/her performance evaluation.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Ballgame -- loyal, Monday, February 11, 12:45:00am [1]

I am surprised to read you would lean toward granting an extension, now, based on the "body of work" exhibited so far.........when the only downside of waiting = potentially losing a smidge of leverage with two "spring" scholarships in April of '08?
In my book, "we're not likely to do better" is not justification for AN EXTENSION....even if true. I know you want better.
Why not wait and see what happens next season? Will the coming years four frosh show promise? Will current players show improvement? Can we escape the play-in round?
All the leverage is with SPC. Seems to me to make little sense to offer an extension we don't have to. What is the rush?????
We've agreed on most things, but I really hate to commit to any more years until I see some player development, at the very least.
Heck, is our bar that low? If so, are we content to maintain it there? Sure hope not.
A little accountability never hurt anyone...let the new AD evaluate all factors in the next 12 months, then earn his money by making a decision....WTF else will occupy his time?.....deciding where to award the re-stringing contract for the tennis team?
Most of us (not in academia) sing for our supper every year. We are granted slack for a few hiccups if we have a good track record. John Dunne should be given the same treatment....no better, no worse. Sorry to say, he's yet to earn the slack.....
I want JD to succeed; I don't want his head. But, I want him to show next year he and his staff can develop players.
By the way, Lampley looked better distributing the ball today, though the stats don't show it. Hit a couple of guys for wide open looks, who proceeded to miss easy shots. I am keeping my fingers crossed.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Ballgame -- oldtimer#1, Monday, February 11, 09:21:32am [1]

Loyal, as you say let's agree to disagree. The point that I was trying to make is that once you have a guy who seems to have all the qualifications for the job and has proven himself in some areas ( ex. recruiting ) you might want to give him what you mght consider some extra time. While I'm not at all convinced John will not be successful, I ask those who have legitimate doubts what will we get next? Perhaps this would not be true if there was someone wonderful out there but our history, that of other teams in our conference, and indeed the world of college basketball demonstrates that coming up with the right guy is usually a crap shoot. We talk as if when Dunne leaves we automatically will be successful. I'd say we'd start from scratch all over again with another hope and prayer.







Seems that Manhattan College, among other schools, are learning that lesson this year. A relatively high profile new coach with all those NYC connections and look at how their fans have become so quickly disenchanted! And who had a worse coaching year than Charlie Weiss at Notre Dame? But how did he handle the criticism. Charlie just recently announced that he will not be calling plays next year but will be delegating that to an assistant. Now there's a guy who knows how to deflect criticism!!!





With all due respect, when you say WTF else will occupy the new AD time you fail to understand, as most of us, the day to day responsibilities of an AD at St. Peter's. It's not like most other schools that are fully staffed and budgeted. This job is for a jack of all trades who multitasks all day long. The guy/gal will have his hands full every single day running that Department.. The vision we have or others espouse is not even close to reality. I repeat, when the new AD eventually comes up for performance review the main criteria, for better or worse, will be how he administers the day to day operations. A winning basketball team will be a feather in his cap but it will only define his success by those few of us that follow the sport.



BTW, I'm trying to stay away from this Darrell thing but are we now trying to explain events away by others dropping all those passes? I was at the game, and let's just say I disagree. Understand from others that the radio commentator was particularly harsh on him, especially defensively.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Ballgame -- loyal, Monday, February 11, 09:48:46am [1]

Interesting....I was there live, so didn't hear the radio.

I know Devezin blew by him once or twice, but did not dominate and penetrate at will for most of the time DL was covering him. Moore and Hasbrouck, pretty good pressure defenders, had a tough time with Devezin on Friday night.

All is all, I did not think DL's defense was bad....not great, but better than most recent efforts. I do agree I was setting the bar low.

Stealing a page from your book? :>)

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Ballgame -- figgyprez, Tuesday, February 12, 01:00:59pm [1]

I would only add that under JD SPC has managed to get into recruiting game in places where we couldn't get a sniff. We have kids from St. Benedicts, Linden, Philly, St.Pat's, Seton Hall etc. For the most part, Leckie was ineffective outside NYC and preps and Blind recruited from 3rd rate JCs. Are we getting stars from these programs? No, but that is not going to happen unless something very lucky happens. But if we have a good relationship with those programs, we might have a shot at a consistent flow of competitive talent. Who knows even the great father at St. Anthony's might someday deign to release one of his assets to the Peacocks.I think both sides have valid points. Call me foolish, but I'm willing to play this hand longer. Saw today that Siljee's kid is drawing MAAC interest, but none at SPC. I don't know if he is a spot up shooter like dad, but he could be a new Orta type which I don't necessarily think is a good thing anyway.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Ballgame -- oldtimer#1, Tuesday, February 12, 03:49:14pm [1]

figgy, right on. JD is trying to build a program and is doing it the old fashioned way, relationships and hard work. How many know, for example, that he has instituted a weight training program for all players whereas one did not exist prior to his arrival.Doubt if he'll try a quick fix JC player but rather concentrate on a player who will contribute for four years. If the record does not improve and we've given him enough time, then I'll side with those who think we need a change. Till then I'm unhappy with the early results but sticking with the guy. I'll also play this hand longer.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Ballgame -- SPC Fan, Wednesday, February 13, 04:59:50pm [1]

Weight training program did exist under Blind and Fiore led by Chris Casey when he was an assistant.I assume Leckie didnt continue it though Fiiemore was into conditioning.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Ballgame -- oldtimer#1, Wednesday, February 13, 05:26:24pm [1]

SPC Fan, thanks. I was just going back to the previous staff. As you probably surmised I was just pointing out that Dunne appears to be doing a lot of those little (or big) things necessary to build a Program. Building relationships with area high school coaches is another. Doesn't guarantee success but at least the guy is going about it the correct way.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Ballgame -- loyal, Wednesday, February 13, 06:16:13pm [1]

Jenkins, Costner and Hogga should certainly benefit from the program this off-season.

Speaking of which, has anyone expreienced a Hogga sighting?

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Ballgame -- Cindy Crawford, Wednesday, February 13, 07:23:51pm [1]

Is in class. Has been excused from practices.Generally home on weekends.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Ballgame -- loyal, Wednesday, February 13, 07:31:43pm [1]

Think he'll return next year and can bury the hatchet (not in Leon's head)?

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Ballgame -- Cindy Crawford, Wednesday, February 13, 11:49:23pm [1]

Hatchet was said to be buried immediately. The future...who can be sure of anything.

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[> [> Re: Ballgame -- SPC Fan, Monday, February 11, 07:50:01am [1]

Manhattan replaced Dunne's mentor John Leonard with Bobby Gonzalez. How did that work out oldtimer.Fail to see your logic there.
That said i am in the camp for a one year extension rather than commit to 3 year extension giving him 6 years. Would think that by year 4 you must see some progress.
I like the coach and want to see him succeed. Yesterday i actually started to see some development from the players. Guards were much more under control.Shot selection was better and the defense was much more active and in your face then previous efforts.
Game was lost in a 4 or 5 minute stretch when we couldn't stop Marist run by making a shot or two. There was a missed 3 by Leon early in the half which would have really been a killer for Marist. It was immediately followed by a 3 for Marist a turnover and another 3 giving Marist the lead and breaking our back.
The team fought back gamely and stayed in it all the way despite no Jenkins.I thought i saw much more positive play from Gooding,Leon and Lampley yesterday.
I think we need to see another good class brought in and intermingled with this years freshman and by this time next year we should expect some improvement. If so it will make decision easy for a new AD to extend again.At least he won't be working as a lame duck if he goes into next year with 2 years on his deal. If he fails the new AD will not be hamstrung by 3 remaining years after next year and will be free to bring in his own man if he or she sees fit.

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[> [> [> Re: Ballgame -- loyal, Monday, February 11, 09:44:33am [1]

I can appreciate the case for a ONE year extension......though I wouldn't grant it.....but I think we all agree a three year extension is over the top.

Glad we solved that one! :>)

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