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Date Posted: 17:10:42 10/05/01 Fri
Author: �� .��
Subject: ��
In reply to: �� .�� 's message, "�� " on 17:26:31 09/25/01 Tue

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[Cover page dedacted]

Page 1

TRUTH AND RECONCILIATION COMMISSION

SECTION 29 HEARING

DATE: 01.04.1998 [04.01.98 in American date/time nomenclature]

HELD AT: JOHANNESBURG

NAME: MR MBELO

---------------------------------------------------------------------

[verbatim]

CHAIRPERSON: This is a section 29 investigative enquiry. It is an
enquiry that seeks to gather information in relation to events which
I think have been outlined.

I am pleased that Mr Peter Williams has been able, on very short
notice to come and to consult and I am pleased also that Mr Mbelo is
before us. It has been brought to my attention, however, that there
is a application that Mr Williams on behalf of Mr Mbelo like to make
as a preliminary to the proceedings and I therefore would like to
hear what the application is about, it is relevant to my competence
as a panellist.

MR WILLIAMS: Thank you commissioner Ntsebeza and other members of the
panel. Firstly I would like to thank the members of the panel for the
invitation as it is called that was extended to Mr Mbelo. In the same
spirit in which it was given Mr Mbelo came here to share whatever he
has even though the invitation complies with the formalities of a
subpoena. He is prepared to respond in the spirit of the invitation
cum subpoena and provide the information that you require. I wish to
place on record that I am Peter Williams from the company E Moosa
White and Petersen acting for Mr Mbelo and the commissioner is
correct when he says that we have an application before we commence.

Firstly I would like to state that we do not wish to offend
Commissioner Ntsebeza or this is not a personal or assailment on the
integrity of the commissioner but it is the request for the
commissioner to recuse himself and it is based on the following: in
1993 Commissioner Ntsebeza acted for the families of the victims of
this incident in a legal capacity and we have copies of letters that
he wrote to inter alia on the physicians for human right's which he
requests that weapons be submitted to them for forensic analysis. He
also wrote to the police in his capacity of the representatives for
the families with a similar request or that the weapons be submitted
to international experts. Now my client has a reasonable suspicion of
bias on the said commissioner and it is basically based on whatever
information might be obtained today might be used for the benefit of
the families through the commissioner or the law firm to which the
commissioner is a member, might benefit from it. He is the director
of that law firm, I also believe that he instituted civil actions on
behalf of the families. In other words the commissioner was involved
at some stage in the investigation of this incident in his capacity
as a lawyer. At the end of the day because he is the director of the
law firm also indirectly as his personal capacity, so the fear that
Mr Mbelo has is that I just mentioned and consequently the fear

Page 2

is that this investigation might be conducted with an ulterior motive
by the said commissioner. The test that one has to apply when one
deals with the recusal of officers is whether there is a reasonable
suspicion of bias on the part of the applicant and not necessarily
whether there is a real apprehension of bias, not whether the bias
itself is real objectively speaking but whether the applicant has
reasonable grounds for fearing that commissioner or the chairman, or
whoever might be biased.

On the basis of what I have said that the commissioner was centrally
involved in some stage prior to the TRC involvement in this matter,
one can say that the applicant has a reasonable suspicion of bias and
it is possible that the information that the commissioner will obtain
today can be used in the future also. If for example after the entire
TRC process it's decided that certain people will be charged and the
commissioner's law firm will be briefed with a watching brief or
whatever, again he can be benefited in that way. Today the purpose of
us gathering together here is to investigate certain things. Now if
the investigatory process is tainted by bias whether it is real or
perceived then subsequent action obtained as a result of this
investigatory process can either be nullified or vitiated, and it's
clear that the investigations that are currently conducted can be
used as a bases for further action in the future. So to safeguard the
integrity of the TRC and this process, we would appeal to the
commissioner to recuse himself today and that is the request.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Khoisan do you have anything on your side?

MR KHOISAN: On our side and with due respect to the esteemed legal
council of Mr Mbelo we would like to place on record that from our
experience with the chairperson in the person of the Commissioner
Ntsebeza, is that he is one who has demonstrated like a track record
as head of the investigative unit and as one who has chaired several
of this Section 29 enquiries of the investigative unit, he's
demonstrated, 1, fairness, 2, it is our position that invariably has
acted in a manner which has shown that process and the integrity of
the process has been intact. Thus far no action has been instituted
against the investigative unit relevant to the role of Commissioner
Ntsebeza in any of the proceedings.

The fact is and we have maintained that you Commissioner Ntsebeza,
currently chair of this panel have a track record for fairness and
also demonstrated in our view the fact that you are not biased and
number two is our view is that you acted at that time in your
capacity as a legal officer and exercised your duties as a attorney
in respect of clients. Over and above that today you sitting in a
position to which you were not brought yourself.

You were appointed by the President because of certain traits that
you exhibit, because there must have been reasonable understanding
and perception on the part of the President of this

Page 3

country and people who have selected you that you have a capacity to
sit in judgement or sit in this senior position in this august body
of the Truth Commission to act out you duties and execute the mandate
of this body and particularly the unit of which you are the head with
dispatch.

So our view that notwithstanding the argument brought by counsel that
at least you will take in whatever decision you will make that you
will take those comments on review and it is our hope that you will
remain Chair of this panel. If a different situation obtains, of
course we will have to deal with it, we have a duty to conduct this
section 29 enquiry and to obtain the information that your client, Mr
Williams has indicated he is willing to impart to us and we are very
interested in getting that information from him and sharing with him
during this session.

CHAIRPERSON: What do you say to Mr Williams's mission that the test
is not really whether there is real bias or even potential bias, it
is sufficient if there is a perception in the mind of the applicant
that there is a suspicion that the person who is going to be sitting
might be biased?

MR KHOISAN: In terms of what the perceptions are I can not speak for
Mr Mbelo and his perceptions, I can merely speak for what our
experience has been. The issue is that you are here in your capacity
of the chair, you are here to be impartial to adjudicate an issue
that has been brought before the Commission. You as an attorney
during the period under revue by the TRC defended many victims and
families of victims and you yourself have a long track record and
it's known in the public arena of being an attorney that handled many
political matters, the issue of the Transkei Raid is just one of
them. We are dealing with a very unfair situation then we will have
to deal with everything over your whole career because your career
essentially is one of being an attorney, a legal officer who has
handled that particular profession in the political terrain. There
are very few attorneys that I know who have been part of that terrain
that can claim not to have interacted with the subject matter of the
Truth and Reconciliation Commission over a period of time.

I think it goes to the fact that you yourself as a person and as a
judge in this capacity and as the chair in these proceedings have
demonstrated that you clearly are unbiased. Now the perception out
there may exist but that perception must be measured against: number
one, the issue of your functioning as an attorney and number two,
your role in this Commission and the subject matter of the Commission
is essentially adjudicating a period of great turmoil in our country,
of which most people in this part of the world were involved. The
only people who can really claim immunity to that particular process
and that theatre are people who for one or other reason where either
absent from the country or choose to remove themselves from that
theatre.

(MS Glenda Wildschut is at this stage the chairperson)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Khoisan.

MR KHOISAN: Thank you madam chair. Mr Mbelo, good
morning.

MR MBELO: Good morning.

MR KHOISAN: I am sorry that we had a couple of delays nevertheless
since we got over this mornings' hurdles Glenda Wildschut has
graciously agreed to chair this process. We therefore would like to
proceed with the subject matter of the hearing today.

Now just to put on the record today Mr Mbelo, you have been called
here, you have actually been invited under Section 29 of ACT 34 of
1995 to appear before this body, at this is in camera hearing to
answer questions relevant to the raid which occurred in Transkei on
or about the 8th of October 1993 at Number 47 AC Jordan Street, North
Crest, Umtata where certain members in the South African Defence
Force allegedly shot and killed Samoro Mpendulo, Sedat Mpendulo,
Mzwandile Mhlea, Sandise Yose, Mtando Ntamo and you have also been
called to answer questions relevant to the South African Police
involvement in the raid, you have been called to answer questions
relevant to information allegedly revealed to members of the police
by Azanian People's Liberation Army detainees and you have also been
called to answer questions relevant to whether there were
coordinating conferences or liaison in respect of the SADF and the
SAP.

Now in terms of this enquiry Mr Mbelo it is our view, and we want to
solicit your cooperation in respect of matters leading up to the
raid, maybe just maybe as a way of introduction so we can begin in a
way of opening up. You are known to the TRC process, you have
appeared here in other matters and it is our view that you have been
helpful to us before, and we valued your assistance, your cooperation
and at time your indulgence.

But to begin, at the time in and about 1993 is it true that you were
a member of the South African Police?

Page 12

MR MBELO: That is true.

MR KHOISAN: At that time Mr Mbelo is it true that you came from a
section within the police known as C Section?

MR MBELO: That is correct sir.

MR KHOISAN: At the time Mr Mbelo, where were you based after you left
C Section?

MR MBELO: From C Section I went to Bloemfontein at the
Security Branch.

MR MBELO: In terms of your work at Bloemfontein Security Branch, just
to establish your rank at that time, were you still a constable or
were you promoted at that time?

MR MBELO: I was a sergeant.

MR KHOISAN: Is that your current rank?

MR MBELO: That is correct.

MR KHOISAN: Now Sergeant Mbelo when you moved to the security branch
in Bloemfontein in 1993, who was your commanding officer?

MR MBELO: I was working under Major Landman.

MR KHOISAN: Is this Major Charles Landman?

MR MBELO: No, sir.

MR KHOISAN: So it was a different Mr Landman. MR MBELO: Yes, it was a
different Mr Landman. MR KHOISAN: In terms of your work with Major
Landman would I be correct to assume it was an extension of your work
as a member of the security police earlier which will mean that you
were located in doing political work?

MR MBELO: That is correct sir.

MR KHOISAN: Would I be correct to assume that there were certain
matters which involved Azanian People's Liberation Army or that there
was a desk which involved APLA or the PAC to which you were assigned?
MR MBELO: Correct sir. MR KHOISAN: Who worked with you in these
matters at that desk?

MR MBELO: When I arrived from Pretoria I found that in that desk were
Major Landman, Major Nicholson Sergeant Gophi is a black person,
Sergeant Motjala and Sergeant Motsamai. Those were the persons I
found when I moved from Pretoria to Bloemfontein.

MR KHOISAN: In terms of the APLA or PAC desk at the security police,
can you give us a sense of what where the five or the three or seven
or two or six major issues that you worked on, that you can remember.
Just from you memory that you can recall?

MR MBELO: In that year or at that time I remember well many freedom
fighters MK assisted to use the armed struggle to overthrow the
government, at that time the freedom fighters who engaged in the
struggle were APLA members, APLA was

Page 13

attacking Free State mainly at the Free State border at Lesotho. They
were attacking mostly farmers.

MR KHOISAN: Mr Mbelo, just as a point of clarification can you gives
us the initials of Maj Landman, we just want to know if you have a
first name for him.

MR MBELO: It's Dolph Landman.

MR KHOISAN: So maybe I will be correct to assume it's Adolph Landman.

MR MBELO: That will be correct sir.

MR KHOISAN: Alright now, in which capacity did you work with a
certain, I believe it's a Warrant Officers Erasmus or -- hold on just
indulge me for a minute, let me just get this. In what capacity did
you know an officer by the name of Stephanus Johannes Hugo.

MR MBELO: I know Stephan Hugo as a major in the security branch in
Welkom during the investigations of APLA. We use to meet and discuss
and share information from various branches.

MR KHOISAN: And in these meetings would it be correct to assume that
there was an liaison or a transfer of information in the respect of
the activities of the Pan Africanist Congress or it's military wing
the Azanian Peoples' Liberation Army?

MR MBELO: That is correct sir.

MR KHOISAN: How would you characterise the position of the Welkom or
Bloemfontein Security Police in respect of its perceived problem with
the Azanian Peoples Liberation Army. What was the orientation, how
would you characterise the way they went about trying to solve or
resolve the problems that they perceived to have with the structure.

MR MBELO: They used to try say, for example, if a source from Welkom
organise to give information they go to Bloemfontein branch as to
wether did they have the information from the source, in other words
they will verify as to wether the information they have does it tally
with the information from the source in Welkom.

MR KHOISAN: In the respect of in the course of your work earlier with
C Section I would assume that some of that modus operandi would have
come over and would have been found at the various security branches
of which Bloemfontein in my assumption and said assumption would be
no different and that is that the security branch in attempting to
solve or resolve problems with perceived antagonists of the state
would go about recruiting sources. Would that be true in Bloemfontein
and Welkom?

MR MBELO: That is correct sir.

MR KHOISAN: And was it true that there were sources who were
recruited at the time, who in effect were being used by the security
branch to provide information relevant to the Azanian Peoples
Liberation Army and the Pan Africanist Congress and it's activities.

Page 14

MR MBELO: That is correct sir.

MR KHOISAN: In run up into the subject matter that we're dealing with
here, how important would you consider the issue of sources to be in
terms of the resolution of these problems?

MR MBELO: Sources were very important even now during the police
work, if you don't have a source you won't be successful in your
police work. They didn't have a good source in regard to APLA before
the Umtata incident. Many students were detained from Ficksburg. The
reason was that they did not have a very good source of information.
The detention of other APLA members that became an important factor
to know about the activities of APLA.

MR KHOISAN: And did you personally Mr Mbelo, Sergeant Mbelo did you
at anytime develop any kind source network in respect of your work to
try solve or resolve the perceived problems the security branch was
having in respect the Azanian Peoples Liberation Army and the PAC?

MR MBELO: No, sir I did not have a source because I was new in that
area in the Free State. If you have a source you must first identify
that source, before you can recruit them to be your source.

MR KHOISAN: Now even though you were new at Bloemfontein it was not
you first time of working in the Free State. During your work in C
Section you travel around the country, is that true?

MR MBELO: When I was in C Section I was going various place but
unfortunately I was not in the Free State because I was born there
and if you are born in a particularly area you could not work there.

MR KHOISAN: Okay that will of course be a necessary deduction, but
when you came there to Bloemfontein and you worked with the people at
the security branch there. Who in your view would be the major
handler in the respect of APLA and the PAC, at the time you got there
in 1993?

MR MBELO: Do you mean a person who was senior? Or do you mean within
the full soldiers of the police?

MR KHOISAN: Let me put it this way, let's start at the top because
you know the system very well. You have somebody who recruits a
source and then you have someone who handles it and then you process
it. But then you have people handling one or informal sources and
then you have people handling regular registered sources, you know
the system. You have people who handle one or more sources, and then
you have people whose production is very high in the security and
handle source networks. Who in your view at Bloemfontein in 1993 when
you got there and when you started working at the PAC desk do you
consider the one who would have been key to either handling or
controlling the APLA source network or PAC source network?

Page 15

MR MBELO: When I arrived there, there was no one whom I could put in
that position because we were struggling, we were going up and down
and the information we received that if we can move from this place
to that place and found the source, it was difficult.

MR KHOISAN: Okay but you told us earlier Mr Mbelo that the person of
Stephanus Johannes Hugo and others from Welkom from time to time the
Bloemfontein, Welkom corridor of what I would perceive the security
branch PAC desks, would liaise and communicate and the subject of the
communication would be the information. Because I was once told by a
senior man in the security police that they did not work on people,
they work on information and files, so maybe in that corridor who
would you say was the main person who was on the APLA/PAC problem.

Let me give you a sense of what I am trying to find before we go to
the documentation that we want to go to. I am trying to set a
scenario which will be able to give us a sense of the chain of
information. I am well aware that you were a sergeant at that time
and so you would necessary be out of the loop of certain information,
but I am also aware of the fact that you were well trained and at
that time you were a fine hone, your skills were fine honed in terms
of the work of the security branch so I am trying to find out who in
that corridor at that time in 1993 would you identify as the key
person who would be responsible for dealing with the APLA or PAC
questions?

MR MBELO: I would say at that time the person who I could say was the
coordinator of the information was Captain Piet Harbron. He was the
information coordinator in regard to the PAC and APLA activities.

MR KHOISAN: Where was he based Sergeant Mbelo?

MR MBELO: Harbron is a captain from Bloemfontein.

MR KHOISAN: So he would handle the Bloemfontein corridor dealing with
probably Lesotho and surrounds and stuff like that?

MR MBELO: He was the information co-ordinating officer of the APLA
desk.

MR KHOISAN: I know that we are here today to deal with the Raid but
we understand Sergeant Mbelo that you at that time in September 1993
began to work on certain problems and would I be correct to assume
that right around until July 1993 the situation had turned around and
you were able to make significant in roads to trying to resolve the
APLA/PAC question?

MR MBELO: I would say that I made a break through in the APLA/PAC
activities. I would say that is when the information started to flow
which tried to help that people who attacked various places who were
responsible were people from APLA, after the detention of some cadres
from APLA.

MR KHOISAN: Now just on the question of detention, I want to draw
your attention to a document marked A 56, it comes from a document
that your counsel had been handling and you had been

Page 16

handling, Umtata MR 178-10-1993 it is A 56(1), and it is the
statement of Selemela Ngezi, do you have that in front of you Mr
Mbelo?

MR MBELO: That is correct I have the statement in front of me.

MR KHOISAN: Now in respect of this particular person Selemela Ngezi,
do you know the person that is being referred to here, Have you ever
had any in your view, an occasion when you had to interact or deal
with this person? In your view.

MR MBELO: That is correct I know this person.

MR KHOISAN: In what context do you know the person of Selemela Ngezi?

MR MBELO: I knew him whilst he was a detainee under Section 29.

MR KHOISAN: He was a detainee under Section 29 of the emergency laws
of the previous dispensation, is that correct?

MR MBELO: That is correct Sir. Not from this Section 29 of this
Commission.

MR KHOISAN: That was Section 29 of the Internal Security Act. Did you
meet him before or after he was at Grootvlei prison, did you know his
name before this man was arrested or was his name given to you on a
list of possible problematic APLA or PAC people that needed to be
brought in?

MR MBELO: No, I didn't know him before he was detained, I knew he
afterward he was detained.

MR KHOISAN: He states in paragraph five of his statement on page 1 of
Umtata A 56 MR 178-10-1993 he states quote" On the fourth of October
1993 I was taken down to Port Elizabeth by a Major Hugo and Sergeant
Mbelo from the Bloemfontein Security Branch" is that correct?

MR MBELO: It is correct Sir.

MR KHOISAN: He was detained at Grootvlei prison at Grootvlei Prison
but that I would assume that he would have been in the hands of the
security police and he says that he was arrested between Elliot and
Tshala and Point 2 and, just to read it on the record

"On the 15th of September 1993 I was arrested between Elliot and
Tshala in the previous Transkei area by the South African Defence
Force. I had three hand grenades and they confiscated it. The South
African police was called to the scene and as they arrived there,
they took me into Elliot police station where I was handed over to
the detectives."

and then in point four he says that:

"On the 26th of September I was brought to Bloemfontein by Warrant
Officer Erasmus and Sergeant Sebeza and another white man unknown to
me. I was kept at Bainsvlei police station".

Page 17

Now relevant to point four of this particular statement Mr Mbelo,
when this particular person was brought to Bloemfontein, did you meet
him in September?

MR MBELO: I met Ngezi at Bloemfontein police station, that is the
same month, that is September.

MR KHOISAN: When you met him in Bloemfontein police station what was
his condition or dispensation and what was the nature of your
interaction with Mr Selemela Ngezi Mr Mbelo?

MR MBELO: I was called to help to translate because Ngezi was
speaking Xhosa and others just brought him there to the tent. That is
the time when I started to know Mr Ngezi.

MR KHOISAN: When he was in Bloemfontein in September of 1993, you say
you were called in to translate and when we're talking about
translating I assume that you were discussing this in the context of
an interrogation of Mr Ngezi which may have ensued at that time, is
that correct?

MR MBELO: That is correct Sir.

MR KHOISAN: When Mr Selemela Ngezi was being interrogated, he was
being interrogated in Bloemfontein police first of all is that
correct?

MR MBELO: Yes, Mr Ngezi was taken in the morning where he was
detained, from the cells then he will be taken to security branch
offices, that is where he was interrogated.

MR KHOISAN: When he was taken to security branch office first of all
what was his physical condition when you first met him? We are trying
to establish whether he had been -- okay what was his physical
condition when you first met him?

MR MBELO: I would say that he was under normal conditions because we
took him from our offices to the district surgeon.

MR KHOISAN: To the district surgeon to determine what?

MR MBELO: It was the policy of the security branch that when a
detainee arrives, he is taken to the district surgeon.

MR KHOISAN: To be certified well and fit before interrogation, is
that true?

MR MBELO: That is correct Sir.

MR KHOISAN: Was there any other occasion when you took him to the
district surgeon during or after the interrogatory process?

MR MBELO: I do not remember well it may have been that I did because
during that time it was not only Ngezi who belonged to APLA and who
was detained, we had three detainees who we were dealing with. Some
of them were sick with normal sickness. MR KHOISAN: Mr Mbelo, when
you took this man to security police headquarters, when he was taken
from Bloemfontein police to the office of the security police, who
were the people who were involved with his interrogation?

MR MBELO: When Ngezi was detained in Grootvlei other members from
various branches in the Free State, we would speak about Bethlehem 60
Branch, which was interested in what he'd say, Ficksburg Security
Branch were interested, Aliwal North was

Page 18

interested and Welkom was interested. So those were the people who
would arrive then they would interrogate Ngezi further.

MR KHOISAN: I am trying to establish, we can deal with Aliwal North,
Ficksburg etc. Let's be in Bloemfontein first because that is your
home base as it were. Who were the people who were directly involved
in the interrogation of him when he first arrived?

MR MBELO: The people who responsible for the interrogation were
Rudolph and Landman, were the people who were responsible for
interrogating Ngezi.

MR KHOISAN: Who is that, is it Major Rudolph?

MR MBELO: Major Landman.

MR KHOISAN: What was the rank of Mr Rudolph?

MR MBELO: I did not talk about Rudolph.

MR KHOISAN: So it is Maj Adolph Landman who was the person who was
primarily involved with the interrogation.

MR MBELO: That is correct.

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