Re: riggings Mizzen(GB) and Misaine(FR) -- NAVAL WARFARE IN THE AGE OF SAIL 1650-1815

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Date Posted: 09:31:59 03/12/09 Thu
Author: Albert Parker
Subject: Re: riggings Mizzen(GB) and Misaine(FR)
In reply to: domi 's message, "riggings Mizzen(GB) and Misaine(FR)" on 04:27:11 03/12/09 Thu

>i always wondered why there are different names
>between french and english for a 3 mast squarre
>riggings
>
>in french we have from front to behind
>beaupres, MISAINE, grand mat, artimon
>
>in english
>bowsprit, fore mast, main mast, MIZZEN
>
To clarify, the «beaupres» is the bowsprit, which was often referred to as a "mast" during the sail era (especially the 18th century and earlier, when it carried two square sails that were generally abandoned around the end of the 18th century) but isn't counted among the masts of a "three-masted" ship.

>the funny thing is that Mizzen seems to come from the
>italian "MEZZO" meaning "in the middle" ...
>
>?? do you have any hints about this MEZZO becoming
>front or rear mast, i guess around XVe century

French seems to be the outlier here. From John Harland, Seamanship in the Age of Sail (except Portuguese)
FOREMAST:
French: māt de mizaine
Italian: albero de trinchetto
Spanish: palo de trinquete
Portuguese: mastro de proa
German: Fockmast (Dutch, Swedish, Danish similar)
MAINMAST:
French: grand māt
Italian: albero maestro
Spanish: palo mayor
German/Dutch: Großmast/grootemast
Swedish & Danish: Stormast
MIZZENMAST:
French: māt d'artimon
Italian: albero di mezzana
Spanish: palo de mezana
Portuguese: mastro de mezana
Danish: Mesansmast
German: Besahnmast (Dutch & Swedish similar)

For English, the Shorter Oxford English Dictionary traces the word "mizen, mizzen" back to 1465 and says, "[Early forms mesan, meson, -eyn — Fr. misaine (now fore-sail, fore-mast) — It. mezana, subst. use of fem. of mezano middle; forms with mi-, my- appear in XVI.]"

It looks like it might originally have been in the middle but in English, Italian, Spanish, and Portuguese it moved aft with the insertion of a "main" mast forward, and probably afterwards of the "fore" mast, while in French it moved forward with the addition of a "grand" (large) mast and then of whatever an "artimon" is (or was originally). I don't have a French dictionary with etymologies.

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Replies:

Re: riggings Mizzen(GB) and Misaine(FR) -- Cy, 13:13:14 03/12/09 Thu
- Re: riggings Mizzen(GB) and Misaine(FR) -- didier, 01:53:04 03/13/09 Fri
  - Re: riggings Mizzen(GB) and Misaine(FR) -- carl brechler, 09:25:47 03/13/09 Fri
Re: riggings Mizzen(GB) and Misaine(FR) -- Gerardo, 04:25:36 03/13/09 Fri
- Re: riggings Mizzen(GB) and Misaine(FR) -- Ron, 04:40:36 03/13/09 Fri
  - Re: riggings Mizzen(GB) and Misaine(FR) -- domi, 09:00:37 03/31/09 Tue
    - Re: riggings Mizzen(GB) and Misaine(FR) -- Naeem Talib, 19:20:42 09/19/09 Sat

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>>i always wondered why there are different names >>between french and english for a 3 mast squarre >>riggings >> >>in french we have from front to behind >>beaupres, MISAINE, grand mat, artimon >> >>in english >>bowsprit, fore mast, main mast, MIZZEN >> >To clarify, the «beaupres» is the bowsprit, which was >often referred to as a "mast" during the sail era >(especially the 18th century and earlier, when it >carried two square sails that were generally abandoned >around the end of the 18th century) but isn't counted >among the masts of a "three-masted" ship. > >>the funny thing is that Mizzen seems to come from the >>italian "MEZZO" meaning "in the middle" ... >> >>?? do you have any hints about this MEZZO becoming >>front or rear mast, i guess around XVe century > >French seems to be the outlier here. From John >Harland, Seamanship in the Age of Sail (except >Portuguese) >FOREMAST: >French: māt de mizaine >Italian: albero de trinchetto >Spanish: palo de trinquete >Portuguese: mastro de proa >German: Fockmast (Dutch, Swedish, Danish similar) >MAINMAST: >French: grand māt >Italian: albero maestro >Spanish: palo mayor >German/Dutch: Großmast/grootemast >Swedish & Danish: Stormast >MIZZENMAST: >French: māt d'artimon >Italian: albero di mezzana >Spanish: palo de mezana >Portuguese: mastro de mezana >Danish: Mesansmast >German: Besahnmast (Dutch & Swedish similar) > >For English, the Shorter Oxford English >Dictionary traces the word "mizen, mizzen" back to >1465 and says, "[Early forms mesan, meson, -eyn >— Fr. misaine (now fore-sail, fore-mast) — It. >mezana, subst. use of fem. of mezano >middle; forms with mi-, my- appear in XVI.]" > >It looks like it might originally have been in the >middle but in English, Italian, Spanish, and >Portuguese it moved aft with the insertion of a "main" >mast forward, and probably afterwards of the "fore" >mast, while in French it moved forward with the >addition of a "grand" (large) mast and then of >whatever an "artimon" is (or was originally). I don't >have a French dictionary with etymologies.

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