Re: well, my last post -- RSQUBF discussion forum

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Date Posted: 17:28:53 04/14/05 Thu
Author: Chris
Subject: Re: well, my last post
In reply to: elia 's message, "well, my last post" on 16:03:47 04/14/05 Thu

here you all have a BIG BIG problem:

That sounds pretty UBFish.

you see, ALL you write is the same and the same again and...

We need to refute the same kind of apology again and again, that's the problem. If we choose to delete them, it's called censoring, if we choose to refute them, it's called repetition.

The other problem is that UBF itself is the same and the same again and... because of its conformity. So the same things will be reported again and again... until UBF changes.

to some of you here i'm seemingly not believable (see another post here on the board)

Exactly speaking, to one of us who was in your shoes once and knows the situation of a UBF 2nd gen a bit. Nobody else claimed this. Why should you be believable if you claim that you didn't notice any of the typical UBF problems in Cologne? I noticed these things and the authoritarian leadership of Abraham Lee though I had relatively little to do with Cologne even. Even Ms. Cammans who wrote about UBF in a book, mentioned the authoritarian habit of Abraham Lee. She published in her book testimonies about Cologne UBF that confirm that it is similar to other UBF chapters. I know of more than a handful of people who all report of the same kind of UBF problems in Cologne just as everywhere else. So, actually, we have a lot of evidence that Cologne is operating with the typical UBF practices. Also, experience tells us that all UBF chapters operate very similarly because of the overall UBF system. I once heard a Catholic cult commissioner talk about cults on the campus. One of his examples was Cologne. He had counseled a young student and reported about exactly the same kind of abuse, that it simply abuse no matter whether seen with Catholic eyes or not. Also, as I alread mentioned and you did not comment - Cologne and your leader Abraham Lee was the main chapter that expelled and excluded the reformers. Abraham Lee wants to coworks with Peter Chang despite the evidence. Let me quote the official Cologne UBF 2002 prayer topics:

1. Weltmission: gute Zusammenarbeit mit M. Sarah Barry und Dr. John Jun
2. Deutschland-/ Europamission: dass Deutschland zum K�nigreich von Priestern und Volk von Hirten werde (10.000 Bibellehrer, 7.000 gl�ubige Haus�gemein�den); gute Zusammenarbeit von Abra�ham Lee mit M. Kaleb Hong und Dr. Peter Chang

in English:

1. World Mission: Good coworking with M. Sarah Barry and Dr. John Jun
2. German/Europemission: that Germany becomes a kingdom of prieses and a people of shepherds (10.000 Bible teachers, 7.000 house churches); good coworking of Abraham Lee with M. Kaleb Hong and Dr. Peter Chang

Reformers were not even mentioned.

So, if you tell us that UBF Cologne has no typical UBF problems and every existing problem is only a personal problem of other people, then indeed you sound unbelievable.

Please notice the difference: Joe did not say that all 2nd gens are liars, he only said he chose to not simply believe them any more, due to his experience.

And actually you did the very same. You always wrote that you would agree with the critics "if the reported things are really true," but this means nothing else that you don't simply believe them. So why do you expect Joe, who does not even know you, to simply believe you, particularly when you claim things that sound very unbelievable, such as that you didn't notice any of the typical UBF problems in Cologne.

somebody says "you are inconsistent" and then you ALL write: "you are inconsistent" sticking together in your thoughts like... huh, i don't know. concerning this, not a bit of rationality here which i was hoping to find...

I only mentioned an inconsistency in the thougts you posted, I did not say that you are an inconsistent person or always inconsistent. And I explained exactly and RATIONALY which point was inconsistent. ONE person (not ALL) agreed with me. So what?

just a last comment: you don't be here. most of you never were. ... but you all are commenting on things you don't even have a tiny little idea of.

This is not a board about Cologne UBF. This is a board about the overall system of UBF of which you are a part. And we know UBF very well. Probably better than you do. So it doesn't matter whether we have been in Cologne or not (I have been there, anyway).

you CAN'T know what's going on here

Why can't we? We have a lot of insider reports, some of which have already been published (see above). And as you know, only recently, I spoke with one of the UBF Cologne dropouts who confirmed all the typical problems.

you all just have lost the necessary objectivity... but that's what you think of me, too, right? so well, we can't help each other...

First question, yes, second question, no.

I think we could help each other if we would simply go through several concrete problems of UBF, and through the problems of shepherding/discipling, but slowly, one point after the other, in its own thread. A chain of topical discussions, instead of sweeping statements, accusations, going back and forth with many ad hominem attacks, "you ALL" statements etc.

If you dare to have such discussions, let's start one, and give it a try, instead of saying goodbye.

Pick one concrete of our issues with UBFand let's discuss it concretely.

The problem is, if we touch issues of Cologne UBF, you simply say everything is personal and private and you can't speak about it or comment on it, and if we touch issues of other chapters, even your neighbour chapter Bonn, you say this is not your business and another world and you can't comment on it either.

When we confront you with testimonies about UBF speaking about forced abortion for instance, you say "I don't know whether I can believe it", and if somebody says "I don't know whether I can believe you", you immediately are mortally offended.

Maybe you need some time to relax and think over it, and then come back and let's discuss concrete issues.

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The fish can -- Mike K., 02:53:16 04/16/05 Sat