Re: Systematic Obedience Training -- RSQUBF discussion forum

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Date Posted: 19:45:44 10/15/04 Fri
Author: PECAS
Subject: Re: Systematic Obedience Training
In reply to: Chris 's message, "Re: Systematic Obedience Training" on 05:05:43 10/15/04 Fri

Chris,

I will probably respond to this post with two or three posts becasue there were mayn good points for which to respond.

>3) God wants a personal relation with you, he wants no
>mediators.
>
>I will stop here and would like to hear your comments.
>When do we need to obey, when not?

I want to take more time in order to give more thought about how to respond to this question. My preliminary point is that the shepherds, elders or church leaders direction must have a basis in scripture. Of course, scripture can be misinterpreted. Nevertheless, I recall frequent directions from my shepherds in which they provided no scriptural basis at all. When I asked what scriptural basis they had for giving this direction, they rebuked me for not 'just following their direction.' Chruch leaders must be challenged to provide Bibical basis for their direction.

Point three above is also important when thinking about when to obey and when not. God wants a personal relationship with us and does not want mediators. One's personal relationship with God cannot be disrespected. Each individual must come to God and seek God personally. Of course, many people make decisions that are clearly sinful and claim that they prayed to God and found that God accepts their action. For example, I know of one person who committed adultery and claimed that she prayed to God and that God said it was okay. This is clearly wrong and church leaders should correct this. However, a church leader can abusively correct people without basis in the Bible or by simply misapplying scripture as UBF leaders frequently do. Respect for each person's relationship with God is essential for individual Christians to experience consistent, real spiritual growth in their personal walk with Christ.

>
>Just one comment concerning the following passage:
>
>UBF wants to raise missionaries and PhD shepherds
>so Shepherd Peter, should be overjoyed about Bill's
>future vision. However, there is one problem. As Bill
>continues to grow in UBF, he needs to be trained
>...
>
>Actually, there are two problems. 1) Bill
>needs to be "trained," and 2) the problem is that UBF
>does not simply want to raise missionaries, they want
>to raise UBF missionaries.

You are correct? I was writing from 'Shepherd Peter's point of view, so I only wrote the problem as 'Shepherd Peter' saw it.

>By the way, was the story purely fictuous? It sounded
>so real.

This story was fiction. However, I have real examples by which I based my post.

Actually, Chris, I thought about one the archived posts on marriage by faith in which you discussed how Kaleb hid your fiance from you, wanted to cancel your marriage and expel you from UBF because you visited with your mother instead of attending the leaders meeting. I argue that Kaleb's reaction was so severe because you had been in UBF for many years, but would still not obey him absolutely. Kaleb may have thought "I bore with Chris for many years and he still disrespects me. He must be trained." Kaleb may have assumed that you had reached the point where you would absolutely obey and seek Kaleb's approval in all things. I do not think that Kaleb ever really intended to expel you, but to train you to not do anything in your life without his approval. Kaleb hoped you would then be conditioned that in the future you would ask him for permission for everything that you do, including when you could visit your family.

Thank you for your response.

In Christ,

PECAS

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Replies:

Re: Systematic Obedience Training -- Chris, 03:31:54 10/21/04 Thu
- Re: Brian Karcher -- Amy, 11:34:43 10/21/04 Thu
  - Re: Brian Karcher -- Chris, 11:44:59 10/21/04 Thu