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Date Posted: 11:51:38 10/13/04 Wed
Author: former
Subject: Re:
In reply to: Brian Karcher 's message, "Re:" on 11:12:22 10/13/04 Wed

>Yes, all of them.

I see. Can you give an hypothetical example of some sort that would indicate to you that a problem SHOULD be addressed?

>because I just don't see that there is a widespread >systematic problem in UBF.

So the fact that multiple senior leaders in 1976, 1990, and 2000 all publically protested with essentially similar allegations does not make you think that there is a widespread systematic problem in UBF?

>If the above things should be done, then when would it >end?

What do you mean? Can you elaborate on this point? I can ask a similar question. If abuse is left unchecked and ignored where will IT end?

>Nearly every poster on this forum has agreed at some point >that UBF ministry needs to be ended.

I don't get that impression. I myself never indicated this. As I said before, I like UBF. I just think it must be realistic in dealing with its problems before God.

>These things are a "slippery slope". I don't see how they >could end in anything but denying Christ and the priestly >duty he has given us.

Please elaborate on this? I do not see how Biblically addressing abuse, problems, and disagreements within the church as Matthew 28:25-19; 1 Timothy 5:19-21; 1 Corinthians 6:1-5 tell us can lead us to deny Christ? I think the stubborn refusal of UBF leaders to even admit that there are problems is a greater danger to people as far as denying Christ is concerned. Why not just confess and repent instead of letting things get worse?

>I know that there are those who were wounded through their >experience in UBF ministry.

But you do not care to help them?

Isaiah 1:17
"learn to do right! Seek justice, encourage the oppressed. [ 1:17 Or [ / rebuke the oppressor ] ] Defend the cause of the fatherless, plead the case of the widow."

Psalm 82 "Defend the cause of the weak and fatherless;
maintain the rights of the poor and oppressed."

>These people need to reconcile with whomever they have a >problem with, and make peace with God.

Don't you think you have a responsibility to the hurt and wounded people who came from UBF, myself included?

1 Corinthians 12:26
"If one part suffers, every part suffers with it; if one part is honored, every part rejoices with it."

Genesis 4:9
"Then the LORD said to Cain, "Where is your brother Abel?"
"I don't know," he replied. "Am I my brother's keeper?" "

See also Luke 10:25-37

>Blindly calling for the UBF ministry to end is not the way >to go. I pray you and they may find peace and healing from >God.

I have not called UBF ministry to end at all. I only know of a handful of people. How about the many within and without who have simply called for confession and repentance?

>I also point out here that I've read nearly every "victim >testimony" on the internet. There are mostly filled >with "he said, she said" words that do not convince me of >an ministry-wide abuse crisis in UBF.

On the contrary, there are plenty of first person testimonies. You heavily discount these while generously inflating the ones that shower accolades on UBF! Regardless, these many testimonies over 30 years still do not lead you to think that there is a problem that needs to be confronted?

>They do convince me that they suffered and in almost every >case, something was done wrongly on both sides. I know in >some cases, at least, that the events mentioned are taken >out of context and cannot be properly understood with such >a one-sided story.

Then there is all the more reason to deal with the problems in a Biblical, impartial and above board manner. If leaders in UBF are innocent, then they should be vindicated.

>By the way, where are these people? Do they want the >people here on this forum to be speaking about their >private lives or to be speaking for them?

Well, since the testimonies were made a matter of public record by the people who experienced the abuse then it is perfectly appropriate to discuss the matters. I am sure if anyone wanted their public testimony removed such as Werner Kajnath, Amy Young, or others, then Chris would most certainly respond by removing them. Wouldn't you Chris? These people wrote testimonies and letters for a reason.

>I also point out here that I knew James and Rebekah Kim. I >was there when James Kim left.

James Kim did not exactly "leave." He was forced out. Do you think this was a shameful way for him to be treated?

>I was there when Paul Hong took over in Toledo. I saw the >prayers, agonies, victories and struggles of leaders from >the inside since 1987.

What about those hurt and wounded people you also knew in Toledo UBF who have now left?

Brian, I think you love the security and certainty of UBF. However, you should love Jesus, the truth, and his people more.

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