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Date Posted: 04:47:27 10/10/04 Sun
Author: Bong-jin Kang
Subject: Re: UBF Doctrine
In reply to: Brian Karcher 's message, "Re: UBF Doctrine" on 01:12:06 10/10/04 Sun

Hello. Your responses seemed to be persuasive to me, thank you.
By the way, I wonder if you give valid answers to the above questions of Joe's http://voy.com/60734/8380.html post.

I'm in a repeated agony in association with the problem of sole(?) mission-evangelism- contrasting with my job related life style or ???

And the point about SL's status within UBF is so OT-oriented, I think. Then, the concept disappeared or changed really, this is a simple question because I don't know reality.

Anyway Joe's comments in general also seemed to be accurate.

What do you think of?




>Tom,
>
>Below are my responses to your various questions and
>statements. These are my own words, not words dictated
>to me or reviewed by someone else. Regarding the
>question of doctrine, Chris Z. does make a valid point
>on his website regarding UBF doctrine, which is not
>universally compiled together and formalized, at least
>in English. This is one of the challenges facing our
>ministry.
>
>>1. You can lose your salvation after you are saved. If
>>you fall out of favor with God, meaning if you disobey
>>your Shepherd, then you are not saved anymore. Ron
>>Ward, Pastor of UBF Chicago, once told me that "you
>>can never be sure of your salvation". He then told me
>>that "Samuel Lee often questioned his status with
>>God". Does anyone else in UBF believe this? I don't
>>really think so, but it would be nice to hear it from
>>someone in UBF.
>
>a.) You say that UBF teaches "you can lose your
>salvation" and that losing your salvation is related
>to disobeying your shepherd. In regard to losing your
>salvation by disobeying your shepherd, I do not adhere
>to this in any way, nor have I ever heard this taught
>or spoken in our ministry.
>
>b.) In regard to losing your salvation, I have not
>heard this teaching emphasized in UBF. However, the
>question of "Can I lose salvation?" is a valid one and
>one that is worth looking at, as it challenges our
>belief system. This is often a hotly debated topic
>among Christians. While I don't think that engaging in
>endless "Calvanist vs. Arminian" debates is
>productive, I have considered this issue. I have read
>several arguments for both sides. Personally, I am not
>convinced that the "once saved, always saved" teaching
>is entirely Biblical.
>
>I am convinced, though, that Scriptures contain enough
>evidence to warrant assurance of salvation and enough
>warnings to warrant "self examination" in regard to
>our salvation status. I believe the statements you
>mention above by Dr.Samuel Lee and Ron Ward are not
>related to losing salvation, but to self examination.
>I for one never want to be so complacent and
>comfortable in my salvation that I presume God must
>allow me to enter his kingdom after death.
>
>Apostle Paul was quite certain of his salvation, yet
>he constantly examined his salvation. He directed
>Christians, not to work for their salvation, but to
>work out their salvation. Philippians 2:12-14 says "12
>Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always
>obeyed--not only in my presence, but now much more in
>my absence--continue to work out your salvation with
>fear and trembling, 13 for it is God who works in you
>to will and to act according to his good purpose. 14
>Do everything without complaining or arguing," (NIV)
>
>
>>2. Marraige by faith. This is a twisting of the
>>scriptures concerning Rebekah and Isaac. This also
>>incorporates another UBF idiom, "grab the blessing".
>>When the blessing is there, grab it! The way it was
>>explained to me sounds like we are to jump at the
>>chance for an opportunity when it presents itself,
>>whether or not we believe it is the right thing to do.
>>(As long as we obey our Shepherds.) Just grab it!
>>Anybody want to explain either of these ideas to me?
>
>a.) I agree that if you only study Isaac and Rebekah,
>you would not fully understand marriage or what it
>means to marry by faith. To understand marriage by
>faith, or rather, marriage for the glory of God, you
>would need to study more than just the Isaac and
>Rebekah account. I've listed the various verses I
>studied before marriage here:
>http://www.priestlynation.com/marriagebyfaith.html
>
>b.) Since you bring up marriage, I would like to point
>out that marriage is more of a process of forming a
>relationship, rather than a single event. People of
>the world marry in quite unGodly ways. Christians are
>left with many struggles and questions about how to
>marry. Some Christians just go along with the worldly
>ways of dating, etc. But there are those who seek
>alternatives to the dating scene common among both
>Christians and non-Christians. To marry by faith is an
>alternative to establishing a marriage in a wordly way
>or in a traditional way. There are some more comments
>and references here:
>http://www.priestlynation.com/marriage.html
>
>c.) You mention the phrase "grab the blessing". I have
>heard this as well, though mostly in contexts other
>than marriage. This blunt phrase reflects the
>passionate spirit of quite a few missionaries. While
>we must live with our own decisions in the end, and we
>certainly should not blindly follow people, there is
>merit to taking hold of God's blessings and making the
>most of every opportunity. The following verses do not
>refer to marriage directly, but they might help
>explain the thinking behind the phrase you mention: 1
>Timothy 6:12; Ephesians 5:15-17.
>
>
>>3. Spiritual order. We all know the routine: sheep are
>>obedient to their Shepherds, who are under their
>>fellowship leaders, who are under their chapter
>>directors, who are under the UBF director, or
>>something like that. Now, I am not saying that there
>>is nothing wrong with churhces or ministries having
>>leaders that make decisions. Every church needs
>>leadership. However, the relationship given here is
>>one way, and is not bi-directional. It does not serve,
>>but it is served. Anyone want to comment on this from
>>UBF?
>
>a.) Spiritual order refers to submitting to Christ and
>to one another out of love. This is what is taught in
>the UBF chapters I've seen. (Ephesians 5)
>
>b.) You mention obedience. Yes, learning obedience is
>a critical part of a life of faith. Even Jesus learned
>to obey, as in Hebrews 5:7,8. The church has the
>responsibility to teach obedience, as in Matthew
>28:18-20.
>
>c.) You mention a one way relationship, arranged like
>a pyramid. This is not the case. Though our ministry
>is not a utopia and not without conflicts, I see many
>relationships like that in 1 Corinthians 16:14-24.
>
>Thank you for your questions. I pray these responses
>may be helpful.
>
>Immanuel,
>Brian

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