Re: Obedience -- RSQUBF discussion forum

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Date Posted: 06:09:10 10/12/04 Tue
Author: Chris
Subject: Re: Obedience
In reply to: Brian Karcher 's message, "Re: Obedience" on 10:37:20 10/11/04 Mon

So the disciples of Jesus respected the Pharisees and considered them part of their ministry?

This leads me to point out another doctrine of UBF, namely dividing Christianity into "ministries" (organizations) and believing that God restricts himself in his judgement to these man-made organizational boundaries.

The argument is always the same, UBF is "God's ministry" or "God's work" or "God's instrument" and thus basically and essentially cannot be questioned. (Brian let me quote one of your recent postings: The conclusion for me is the same: UBF is an instrument of God's work.). All discussion must stop at this point: UBF is God's work. In reality that's cult-like doctrine and used as a though-stopping mechanism.

The Bible never speaks of different ministries, but only of ONE universal church, with independent, but accountable local churches led by elders as its manifestation. And even these local churches do not have automatically full approval by God because they are part of God's church. The Bible (e.g. in Rev 2-3) speaks about local churches which are divided, a part is good, but they have also something bad in themselves. There may be practices and doctrines in these churches that God approves, and others that God does not approve. There are also people in these same churches who please God and others who not. God does not automatically "cover" everything that happens in these churches because they are "God's ministry." The Bible also speaks about the necessity that churches need to weed out the bad things and people and warns that if this does not happen, they may lose their status as part of God's church. And the Bible speaks about the possibilty that a whole church may be in a state where it needs to repent (Rev 3:3).

The concept of "God's ministry" which never needs to repent is a fallacy and completely unbiblical. I think it is part of an extended "covering" doctrine: Because UBF calls itself a Bible ministry and has done some good things, God himself will cover up everything, since it "his" ministry.

I agree that the disciples did have a lot of Judaism in them and even practiced Jewish ways.

Not only the disciples, but Jesus too. He did not condemn everything that was Jewish and every Jewish tradition which is rooted in the Torah. He did not come to abolish the Law or the Prophets.

But these people they are up against in this passage where the same group that crucified Jesus! It was quite clear to Peter and John that the religious leaders were not part of Jesus' ministry and had rejected Jesus' words.

The Bible emphasises that virtually ALL of the Jews (the upper class and the masses who cried "crucify him") as well as the Gentiles (Pilate, Herode) crucified Jesus. In Acts 2:36 Peter said that all of his listeners crucified Jesus, not only the leaders. Many people repented after Peter had said this, probably even some of the leaders. Usually the top leaders are the last to repent, as we also see in UBF. Peter and John wished that all leaders repent. They did not think in terms of "another ministry" when they were disobedient to the leaders who told them to not mention the name of Jesus any more. With other words: The disobedience of Peter and John was the cause and starting point of the schismn, not the other way round that Peter and John disobeyed because the church already was divided and its leader had no authority any more. Please also note that even later in Acts 23, Pauls still respected the high priest.

I believe when it is written "We ought to obey God rather than men." then it means just that, and it is a universal rule. I cannot follow the mental acrobatics you are using in order to show that "men" should be translated as "men outside our ministry," where the meaning of "ministry" is still undefined.

Just to make the point concrete, let us assume you are a UBF member in the USA and Mister X tells you you should do something which you believe is against the will of God or against Biblical ethics or laws. Brian, could you please elaborate in which of the following cases Acts 5:29 applies, because Mister X is "part of your ministry"?

Mister X is the leader of your UBF chapter
Mister X is the leader of a different UBF chapter
Mister X is the top leader of UBF
Mister X is the leader of the Presbyterian Church which once had sent out Miss Barry
Mister X is the leader of another church
Mister X is the Pope
Mister X is the US President, and he is an Evangelical
Mister X is the US President, and he is a Catholic
Mister X is the US President, and he is an atheist

Or would you better agree that your restriction of Acts 5:29 to leaders "within the minstry" (here) was foolish and the verse simply applies in all of these cases? Actually you agreed at last (here), but then I really would like to know why you made that whole fuss and confusion about "within" and "without" the "ministry" in the first place?

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Replies:

Re: Obedience -- Brian Karcher, 14:49:20 10/20/04 Wed
- Re: Obedience -- Chris, 04:30:01 10/21/04 Thu
- Re: Obedience -- Bob, 18:30:47 10/21/04 Thu