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Date Posted: 15:32:47 02/01/06 Wed
Author: Day
Author Host/IP: NoHost / 64.36.222.82
Subject: Part 2
In reply to: Day 's message, "Insane Thread from the past! Volume 1: 07/08/02 Mon" on 15:31:17 02/01/06 Wed

[> [> **Sorry, but Spike is the world and all in it. Where have you been?** -- One_by_one, 00:40:20 07/08/02 Mon (fia-0124.infoaomori.ne.jp/202.216.102.124)

But seriously, I hope it is not Angel part 2. I love Spuffy and I have serious reservations about this.

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[> [> [> No matter how you cut it Spike will have to show remorse of some kind -- Day, 00:44:39 07/08/02 Mon (spider-wm041.proxy.aol.com/205.188.199.166)

And whether he cries and moans like Angel or remains snarky he's still a vamp with a soul trying to do good and make up for past deeds. It's still Angel2 no matter how you cut it, IMHO

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[> [> [> [> That is my fear Day. :( **But he still is the world.*** -- One_by_one, no soul no problem, 00:48:56 07/08/02 Mon (fia-0124.infoaomori.ne.jp/202.216.102.124)


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[> [> [> [> [> If you put your passion for Spike into the way..... -- Day, 00:56:39 07/08/02 Mon (spider-wm041.proxy.aol.com/205.188.199.166)

you make love I think you'd kill a man. *wink* I'm game:)

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[> [> [> [> [> [> Hmm, I am getting all sorts of interesting offers today..... -- One_by_one, 01:43:02 07/08/02 Mon (fib-0179.infoaomori.ne.jp/202.216.103.179)


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[> Re: Let me ask you this/Why can't Spike have a Soul and -- nephalim, 00:28:26 07/08/02 Mon (du117122.wb3.ptd.net/204.186.117.122)

YAH - totally agree with you. They had to take away Buffy's stumbling block ie - "soulless evil thing". Also, according to BTVS canon (see Angel/Angelus and Xander/Hyena Xander) Spike has now "earned" his soul, all should be forgiven, Spike with a soul is not responsible for the actions of the "soulless" Spike. He is not the same "being".

It doesn't matter if he looks the same or acts the same HE is not the Same he has a SOUL!

Therefore, Spike and Buffy forever!!!!!!!

Also, IMO, people that have been anti-Spuffy have been stating throughout this season that Buffy can't really love Spike because he doesn't have a soul. Well, ME just took care of that with this turn of events. The arguments against S/B and Spike concerning his "soulless evil" condition can no longer be made. Plus, it does open up the whole S/B relationship to go forward without having to address past Spike "transgressions". But, I'm sure ME will make it as difficult, heart wrenching and full of UST as possible.

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[> [> Reinhard Heydrich had a soul... -- Anya Fan, 00:32:30 07/08/02 Mon (6532152hfc206.tampabay.rr.com/65.32.152.206)

but there's no way I'd let my daughter date him!

Again--Soul does not necessarily equal Good. See above and see Warren...

Spike still has the demon within him--he just might not be strong enough to beat it down as Angel is.

Anyway, who knows what next season will bring--maybe Spuffy Mk 2; or maybe me and Oz will be singing along with Kansas "Dust in the Wind"

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[> [> [> Warren had one too -- Gadget, 00:32:59 07/08/02 Mon (CPE-144-132-132-224.nsw.bigpond.net.au/144.132.132.224)


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[> [> [> [> Yeah, Gadget, I didn't forget our favorite ad for skin care products -- Anya Fan, 00:36:12 07/08/02 Mon (6532152hfc206.tampabay.rr.com/65.32.152.206)

It's just that Heydrich was so evil...

Hard to believe a man like that was once a helpless baby...

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[> [> [> [> [> This is true -- Gadget, 00:38:47 07/08/02 Mon (CPE-144-132-132-224.nsw.bigpond.net.au/144.132.132.224)

how does this happen to people..I don't understand..I think i don't want to understand

this whole thing reminds me of Triangle..you know Willow arrives with Anya at the Bronze and sees Olaf and says I wish Buffy was here and Buffy appears and then says I wish I had a million dollars and nothing appears and says just checking...

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[> [> [> [> Re: Warren had one too -- Young at Heart/You know, I'mreally getting tired of getting, 01:03:32 07/08/02 Mon (lsanca1-ar2-128-015.lsanca1.dsl-verizon.net/4.3.128.15)

called a bitch, insane, a rapist lover, I've been raped, know what it is. I don't think I'm really wanted here any more, and that hurts me cos' I have as much right here as any one else, but oh well, I guess I don't fit in any more. Love you guys, will miss you guys.

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[> [> [> [> [> YAH - We Love You and don't think you're any of the above.. -- nephalim, 01:15:27 07/08/02 Mon (du117230.wb3.ptd.net/204.186.117.230)

there are many, many of us on this board that love you and your threads. We support Spike and Spike/Buffy. We need you...and for all those crazy, ar supporters out there YA US!!!!!!!!

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[> [> [> [> [> Re: Warren had one too -- Anya Fan, 01:16:17 07/08/02 Mon (6532152hfc206.tampabay.rr.com/65.32.152.206)

I don't recall either Gadget or I calling you any of those things, and while I can't speak for Gadget, I am offended at you apparently putting those words in my mouth. I just simply disagree with you as regards Spuffy. If you find that offensive, then I'm sorry, but I'm not going to change my mind.

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[> [> [> [> [> I didn't call you any of those things -- Gadget, 01:22:15 07/08/02 Mon (CPE-144-132-132-224.nsw.bigpond.net.au/144.132.132.224)

I have been raped too and in fact beaten to death by the guy who raped me and am alive today because of the wonders of modern medicine..I don't think this makes my POV any more valid then your own

As for the name calling I have never called anyone any names ever I have no idea what you are referring too and I find it deeply offensive that you put words in my mouth and Anya Fan did no such thing either

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[> Re: Let me ask you this/Why can't Spike have a Soul and -- KelleyB, 00:31:06 07/08/02 Mon (pcp01814630pcs.nash01.tn.comcast.net/68.32.97.95)

If people can forgive Angel after he got his soul and then got it back, why is it so hard for people to give Spike a second chance?

The way I see it is, Angelus was way more evil than Spike. Spike always had some humanity in him anyway.

Angelus' crimes were way more awful than Spike's but people refuse to even see the good stuff that soulless Spike does. Angelus never did anything good. He drove Drusilla insane.

I'm all for Spike's redemption. And I'm not upset they decided to give him a soul. But the writers can't please everyone, and I don't think they have any desire to.

I still love Spike though. I hope he has a better year this coming season. And trust the writers and Joss. They know what they are doing.

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[> [> Redeem Spike until hell freezes over -- Ozmandayus, 00:36:40 07/08/02 Mon (spider-wm041.proxy.aol.com/205.188.199.166)

But don't tell me he is God and Spuffy is the show. Also I don;'t give a damn how you cut it or what you shove in his chest, if Buffy can forgive him of trying to rape her in her own house she is a damn fool, IMHO and the show will look freaking nuts, IMHO. If you want to forgive Spike fine. Do whatever with him you want. But don't tell me he is the show. He ain't to every damn body, believe it or not.
And I feel Spuffy is sicker now tha it ever was if it return hm having a soul is good for him to begin to redeem himself. But for Buffy to fall in love with him would be sick, IMHO.

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[> [> [> Uh... -- KelleyB, 00:44:47 07/08/02 Mon (pcp01814630pcs.nash01.tn.comcast.net/68.32.97.95)

I'm not saying that what Spike did was right. I'm saying that Spike wasn't exactly in the right frame of mind when he attacked Buffy. I don't support rape. I don't support attempted rape. I also don't support Buffy beating the royal crap out of Spike in an alley and leaving him there to burn in the sun. I am not a fan of unfair treatment. You can't expect Spike's fans to stop loving him just because of something that happened in the bathroom at Buffy's house. Everyone has their likes and dislikes and I'm not supporting Spike: Attempted Rapist. I'm supporting Spike: The Guy who is trying to do something right.

And I don't want to start a fight. I never said Spike was the show. I don't think Spike is God. I just like Spike. And I'm not going to change that because of an awful scene written to try and turn everyone against Spike. It didn't work.

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[> [> [> [> Kelley Be.....You go girl!!!!!!! -- nephalim, 00:48:47 07/08/02 Mon (du117122.wb3.ptd.net/204.186.117.122)


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[> [> [> [> [> Thanks..... -- KelleyB, 00:55:22 07/08/02 Mon (pcp01814630pcs.nash01.tn.comcast.net/68.32.97.95)

Thanks nephalim. :)

I don't want to offend anyone. I don't even like to fight about this stuff.

Anyway, I'm going to bed! I have to work 9-6 tomorrow with a bunch of kids. And since it'll be Monday, I'll probably get a bad headache.

So, everyone have a good night.

I'm gonna sleep and dream of B/S lovin'.

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Replies:

[> [> Part 3 -- Day, 15:34:09 02/01/06 Wed (NoHost/64.36.222.82)

[> [> [> [> [> You're right...it didn't work. -- t007, 00:58:34 07/08/02 Mon (dialup-209.245.171.118.Dial1.Seattle1.Level3.net/209.245.171.118)

Now I want to see them write themselves out of it. This is going to be fun.

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[> [> [> Re: Redeem Spike until hell freezes over -- Ozmandayus, 00:48:02 07/08/02 Mon (spider-wm041.proxy.aol.com/205.188.199.166)

3 IMHO show I was simply giivng my point of view and not trying to change yours. You and I both have our minds made up. And for me the SR scene showed Spike the way he truly is, IMHO.

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[> [> [> Oz, forgiveness is all encompassing, except for AR? -- Althea, 00:49:32 07/08/02 Mon (max2-123.msl.net/209.176.168.123)


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[> [> [> [> Forgiveness is all encompassing, but one still must pay one's debt to society -- Anya Fan, 00:55:13 07/08/02 Mon (6532152hfc206.tampabay.rr.com/65.32.152.206)

Blind mercy is as foolish as blind vengeance. One does not allow a rabid dog to roam free. Spike has to show that he truly is worthy of not having as his new home a vaccuum bag.

In any event, I'm like Oz in that I think the AR has pretty much killed Spuffy as a romance--at best I see them in a purely working relationship with him as an anti-hero--at worst, as opponents with him as a villain where we're going to see a tragic ending at the end of season 7.

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[> [> [> [> Forgiveness is all encompassing. Forgetfulness is stupid -- Ozmandayus, 01:01:04 07/08/02 Mon (spider-wm041.proxy.aol.com/205.188.199.166)

At some point and time Buffy needs to stop making the mistake of getting involved with vampires. If an AR doesn't wise her up nothing will

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[> [> Re: Let me ask you this/Why can't Spike have a Soul and -- WillowMuch, 00:40:26 07/08/02 Mon (pv182103.reshsg.uci.edu/128.195.182.103)

IMHO, people forgave Angel not because he got cursed with the soul but what he CHOSE to do with it..to atone, make amends and fight the evil. He could have still been evil with the soul, since there are people with souls who still go evil [eg Warren] but Angel did not.

Similarly, I'm not going to judge Spike until I know what he is upto. If he got a soul to really redeem himself, not just in Buffy's eyes but for his own, to make amends for his past, then we should give him a chance.

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[> [> [> well that may be because WillowMuch -- Gadget, 00:52:30 07/08/02 Mon (CPE-144-132-132-224.nsw.bigpond.net.au/144.132.132.224)

you see Spike as a character independently of Spuffy I assume..I hope that this is what they do because I think he is a character independently of Spuffy as well..I hope he learns that redemption comes because you want to do it for yourself and not to get laid

I mean Spike is interesting and all Spuffy was well not healthy and neither character was happy..I want happy characters by the end of s7 which by all accounts will be the last season

In the end the never ending and getting to be rather predictable Spuffy/non-Spuffy debate makes me want buffy by herslf as a woman who knows who she is and learns that happiness comes from within not from other people..but thats just me

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[> [> Re: Let me ask you this/Why can't Spike have a Soul and -- nephalim, 00:42:00 07/08/02 Mon (du117122.wb3.ptd.net/204.186.117.122)

Can't wait to see more s/b action...now that he's souled Spike's the one for Buffy IMO.

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[> [> Geez, gotta love it when religious *men* motives start telling women how to react to ‘rape’. -- OneTwoMany, 00:55:09 07/08/02 Mon (NoHost/203.37.110.7)


Keep this is mind, Ozmandayus:

Buffy has never said what Spike did was attempt to rape her. She wasn’t particularly traumatised by it and she clearly hasn’t decided what she thinks about it. That’s certainly unusual for a woman in her position, but it’s her choice to make.

Rape isn’t about sex. It’s about power, and the deliberate usurpation of it. What she does to get her power back, and how she treats Spike, her choice, and no one has the right of call it ‘sick’. If she chooses forgive Spike, so be it. You have no right to judge.

Fact is, people react to situations like that in different ways. They certainly benefit from support and guidance, but they last thing any victim needs is moralising, absolute commandments from on high.

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[> [> [> Re: Geez, gotta love it when religious *men* motives start telling women how to react to ‘rape’. -- Gadget, 00:58:39 07/08/02 Mon (CPE-144-132-132-224.nsw.bigpond.net.au/144.132.132.224)

I think we all have the right to our own opinions on the matter no matter which way one views it...to say that someone is moralising because they happen to differ from your own isn't really fair and well is sort of moralising unto itself...just thought I'd point it out..sorry my Aussie friend

We have no idea why ozman or any anti spuffies believe the what they do and why they believe it and it is as valid a POV as anyone elses

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[> [> [> [> You're right ... I over-reacted -- OneTwoMany, 01:06:47 07/08/02 Mon (NoHost/203.37.110.7)

But moralising from certain people who want to use an attempted rape to blatantly and hypocritically push a ship with a person who constantly disregards Buffy's wishes when it comes to her personal affairs just pisses me off.

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[> [> [> [> [> We all hold our strongly views, OneTwoMany -- Ozmandayus, 01:10:29 07/08/02 Mon (spider-wm041.proxy.aol.com/205.188.199.166)

And your thinly veiled insult should at least have the maturity to speak the persons name you are referring to.

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[> [> [> [> [> Re: You're right ... I over-reacted -- Gadget, 01:12:20 07/08/02 Mon (CPE-144-132-132-224.nsw.bigpond.net.au/144.132.132.224)

Which is why I have no ship....neither of them are good enough IMO for Buffy..Buffy acted badly towards spike yes he did towards her but I'd rather think Spikes story has some more meaningful undertone then getting laid or getting Buffy..I can't help it..I so want him to be a character that is seen in term sof something beyond Buffy because for me that is interesting

Ah the over-reaction on the net..it is a wonderful thing and we all do it from time to time

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[> [> [> [> [> [> Hey, I agree, I'm not even a Spuffy -- OneTwoMany, 01:22:23 07/08/02 Mon (NoHost/203.37.110.7)

And for what it's worth, I think the AR was aimed at ending B/S for good. I also think for political reasons it will.

But I'll also say this - which will probably get deleted - Ozmandayus, you and other B/Xers scare me. I was, when I first posted on this board, very sympathetic to B/X. But it became clearer and clearer that supporting B/X meant supporting absolute, black and white views and a condescending attitude toward women which I simply can't - and won't - sympathise with. And I'm not afraid to say it.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Wow...OneTwoMany... -- nephalim - shakes head in agreement, 01:26:28 07/08/02 Mon (du117230.wb3.ptd.net/204.186.117.230)

You put into words exactly what bothers me so much.....BTVS has shown time and time again that the world is not Black and White...S6 most of all.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> It most definitely isn't black and white... -- Anya Fan, 01:30:27 07/08/02 Mon (6532152hfc206.tampabay.rr.com/65.32.152.206)

but it is about accepting responsibility for one's actions. Maybe we will see that out of Spike in season 7--maybe not. To date, Spike has not really done that. Maybe having a soul will cause him to do that. I just don't want Spike turning into a pale imitation of Angel--he's intriguing character in his own right. Nor do I think Spuffy is a necessary component to Spike's journey--although the writers very well might think that, and their opinions are the ones at the end of the day that really count.

All we can really do is wait and see where they take all of the characters next season...

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> OneTwoMany, that is so crazy a response you won't even get one but this heading -- Ozmandatyus, 01:42:58 07/08/02 Mon (spider-wm041.proxy.aol.com/205.188.199.166)


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[> [> [> Thank you, Gadget. You said it all. -- Ozmandayus, 01:02:50 07/08/02 Mon (spider-wm041.proxy.aol.com/205.188.199.166)


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[> [> [> [> Buffy has forgive "AR" before! -- nephalim, 01:08:11 07/08/02 Mon (du117230.wb3.ptd.net/204.186.117.230)


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[> [> [> [> [> And if she forgives it fully, fine. But no Spuffy ever again. -- Ozmandayus, 01:13:36 07/08/02 Mon (spider-wm041.proxy.aol.com/205.188.199.166)

It's time she learned form her mistakes
Spike was a huge mistake. He still is, soul or no soul.

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[> [> [> [> [> Oz can't agree with you there... -- nephalim, 01:22:12 07/08/02 Mon (du117230.wb3.ptd.net/204.186.117.230)

IMO Spike is the ONE for Buffy...hopefully, we'll all see why in S7.

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[> Or it's a compromise -- OneTwoMany, 00:31:58 07/08/02 Mon (NoHost/203.37.110.7)

We get a fully redeemed Spike - albeit one who still has a lot to come to terms with - who can now be treated as a genuine hero without all freakout over 'canon violations'. In exchange, though, we have to accept a Spike who has changed enough to recognise what was wrong with his relationship with Buffy and who is now able to divorce himself from his obsession with her.

Or, we get ensoulled Spike, fully ready, willing and able to leap into the role of Dawn's protector - this time with no lingering doubts as to whether he really cares for the girl or just wants to use her to get the elder Summers. If done well, that would be an absorbing story that would leave little time for Spuffy - and little point, if Spike is going to be leaving for a spinoff anyway.

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[> Re: Let me ask you this/Why can't Spike have a Soul and -- kadeskiss, 00:32:37 07/08/02 Mon (1Cust98.tnt8.stewart3.il.da.uu.net/63.21.77.98)

The real reason Spike tried to Rape Buffy was.............
It was in the "script".







Everyone loved her with Angel, and he was a mass murderer. who enjoy driving his victim insane before he killed them.If they can forgive Angel for trying to kill Buffy's mom and her friends (he tried to kill the whole world) I think they should be able to forgive Spike. The ones who do understand that,never liked him, before the SR episode.

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[> *yawn* Goodnight everyone -- TC, 00:33:00 07/08/02 Mon (A010-0393.AMRL.splitrock.net/64.196.205.139)


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[> [> TC...TC....TC...Where are my anti-rant pills!!! -- Ozmandayus, 00:37:42 07/08/02 Mon (spider-wm041.proxy.aol.com/205.188.199.166)


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[> [> [> I took them all, but here is something that may be even better -- TC, 00:42:07 07/08/02 Mon (A010-0393.AMRL.splitrock.net/64.196.205.139)

check it out and focus on something else :)

http://www.fhmus.com/girls/covergirls/186/


TC

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[> [> [> [> TC--you sir are a good and wise man... -- Anya Fan, 00:50:10 07/08/02 Mon (6532152hfc206.tampabay.rr.com/65.32.152.206)

thank you for the change in focus--much rather be looking at that than agonizing over Buffy with a certain peroxide haired future dust bunny

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[> [> [> [> You guys are doing great. That made me want to rant. -- One_by_one, 00:54:34 07/08/02 Mon (fia-0124.infoaomori.ne.jp/202.216.102.124)


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[> [> [> [> [> No offense one-by-one, but I'm not sure if you're upset or not... -- Anya Fan, 01:01:49 07/08/02 Mon (6532152hfc206.tampabay.rr.com/65.32.152.206)

If you're upset by us ogling a bikini clad Catherine Bell, how is that different from MNA or you ladies enjoying James Marsters physical charms?

I love my wife and think she's the most beautiful woman in the world, and I would never do anything but look, but I will also admit that I do enjoy looking at attractive women--I'd never touch, but I do like to look every once in a while...what can I say, I'm a guy.

If it's because Oz and TC and to an extent myself are maybe coming across as somewhat combative, then you have to understand that the initial post was somewhat combative--it was essentially tossing a glove down. What did ya'll expect?

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[> [> [> [> [> [> That woman is seriously -- Gadget, 01:03:53 07/08/02 Mon (CPE-144-132-132-224.nsw.bigpond.net.au/144.132.132.224)

seriously H_O_T..I love her so..mmmmmCatherine Bell

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: That woman is seriously -- Anya Fan, 01:05:55 07/08/02 Mon (6532152hfc206.tampabay.rr.com/65.32.152.206)

She is sweet, isn't she? ;)

Although I have to admit to a partiality towards Asian women seeing as I married one...

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> I have -- Gadget, 01:16:04 07/08/02 Mon (CPE-144-132-132-224.nsw.bigpond.net.au/144.132.132.224)

this spanish thing...my g/f is French/Spanish..mmmmmmmmm..wicked sexy woman

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> I dated a Korean/Cuban girl years ago... -- Anya Fan, 01:22:13 07/08/02 Mon (6532152hfc206.tampabay.rr.com/65.32.152.206)

sexy too...

My wife is Japanese/American--speaks fluent Japanese too--I know I'm really in the doghouse when she starts to cuss me out in Japanese--I'm very familiar with the word baka :)

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[> [> [> [> [> [> Oh no, I meant the whole post. I am antisoul. I think you guys are fine! :) Not upset. -- One_by_one, for equal checking out the babes, 01:44:56 07/08/02 Mon (fib-0179.infoaomori.ne.jp/202.216.103.179)


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[> Re: Let me ask you this/Why can't Spike have a Soul and -- kadeskiss, 00:33:25 07/08/02 Mon (1Cust98.tnt8.stewart3.il.da.uu.net/63.21.77.98)

The real reason Spike tried to Rape Buffy was.............
It was in the "script".







Everyone loved her with Angel, and he was a mass murderer. who enjoy driving his victim insane before he killed them.If they can forgive Angel for trying to kill Buffy's mom and her friends (he tried to kill the whole world) I think they should be able to forgive Spike. The ones who do not understand that,never liked him, before the SR episode.

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[Edit]
[> [> [> Part 4 -- Day, 15:35:29 02/01/06 Wed (NoHost/64.36.222.82)

[> :) LOL! This is super... -- 3Strikes, 00:35:02 07/08/02 Mon (yawl.soc.lib.md.us/64.26.65.66)

...Now, for your next trick, could you please provide us with tomorrow's lottery numbers ? Pretty Please ? :) I don't know where JW is going with Spike, but I seriously doubt he 's gonna plagiarize himself a second time: B/S as a third rate B/A imitation, only with a snarky runty blonde Angel wannabe as the romantic lead ? Sorry, but Bis Repetita Non Placent. And no matter how much spoofers want to believe, the show is still called *Buffy* the vampire slayer, not Spike the Whining Vampire. So Sorry If I "don't see that," but I watch this show for Buffy, not for Billy Idol. And the Ratings started their slow crash as soon as they starting focusing on spoofy to the exclusion of the other aspects of the show. A coincidence... or a warning to ponder as we approach S7 ? Rant Out.

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[> [> Thank you, 3 Strikes!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! -- Ozmandayus, 00:42:17 07/08/02 Mon (spider-wm041.proxy.aol.com/205.188.199.166)


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[> [> :) He! He! I guess we're some of the happy few not blinded by the *blessed* cheekbones and... -- 3Strikes, 00:51:41 07/08/02 Mon (yawl.soc.lib.md.us/64.26.65.66)

...the *holy* abs. :) Not that I begrudge them their love of Saintly Spike, mind you, it's just that I draw the line at the "THOU shalt SEE the goodness that is Spuffy" and "THOU shalt WORSHIP the holy blonde one." :) All worship must be reserved for Buffy, and Buffy alone :) ! Blessed be her name ! :) LOL

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[> [> **Sorry. BTVS="Bout That Vamp Spike. How did you miss that?** -- One_by_one, still wants that soul gone, 00:53:28 07/08/02 Mon (fia-0124.infoaomori.ne.jp/202.216.102.124)


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[> [> [> ROTFLOL -- nephalim - who would watch it in a heartbeat!, 00:57:22 07/08/02 Mon (du117230.wb3.ptd.net/204.186.117.230)


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[> [> [> :) LOL! Change it to *Bout That Vamped Scamp*, and you've got a deal ! :) -- 3strikes, 00:58:19 07/08/02 Mon (yawl.soc.lib.md.us/64.26.65.66)


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[> [> [> One by One, you scare me..*Ozzie backs away slowly* That was funny, lol -- Day, 00:59:24 07/08/02 Mon (spider-wm041.proxy.aol.com/205.188.199.166)


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[> I CAN see the forest for the trees... -- t007, 00:56:50 07/08/02 Mon (dialup-209.245.171.118.Dial1.Seattle1.Level3.net/209.245.171.118)

We have no idea what ME is going to do. It's fun to guess...but still, we have no idea. Maybe there will be a Spike/Buffy romance, maybe not...I guess we will find out in Sept/Oct.

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[> [> I can't see the bush for the Kangaroos however -- Gadget, 01:01:25 07/08/02 Mon (CPE-144-132-132-224.nsw.bigpond.net.au/144.132.132.224)

I agree we have no idea I wish these Roos' would nick off though

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[> Sigh -- bubonicplague1348, 00:57:33 07/08/02 Mon (adsl-64-108-192-186.dsl.chcgil.ameritech.net/64.108.192.186)

This argument that Spike and Buffy can't get together because of the attempted rape is ridiculous. Just like for a lot of us the attempted rape was ridiculous. The writers are going to do what they please.

Who cares what a soul means? Obviously the writers don't...they are going to make it what they want. They can't even decide amongst themselves if Anya has one. And why? Because she's not the issue when it comes to illustrating souls or redemption. Spike is. Whether they choose to make him evil or not with a soul or not is part of the story they are choosing to tell when it comes to him.

As for this whole "he can't be redeemed because he did it for her" idea, I find that silly. No one does things "unselfishly". No one. Go read Ayn Rand or something, sheesh.

I watch for Spike, NOT Buffy, not any other character. I don't care what the show is called. I'm sure others watch for various other reasons. Thepoint is, the writers are going to do whatever the heck they want with these characters, whether we like it or not or whether it fits in with our conceptions of the characters or not.

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[> [> Thank you... -- nephalim, 01:01:09 07/08/02 Mon (du117230.wb3.ptd.net/204.186.117.230)

all the "souled" characters did some major "evil" things this season...if they can be forgiven...SPike who is now "souled" deserves it the most...He is a new "being" and once again BTVS Canon should be followed.

I too thought the AR was a deliberate attempt turn Spike supporters against him...it didn't work for me, nor for many, many, other Spike fans.

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[> [> Re: Sigh -- Ozmandayus, 01:06:13 07/08/02 Mon (spider-wm041.proxy.aol.com/205.188.199.166)

"Thepoint is, the writers are going to do whatever the heck they want with these characters, whether we like it or not or whether it fits in with our conceptions of the characters or not."

Hey Petunya *kisses*

I agree with that part completely. Thank you. As for the other parts you know you and I will never agree. Dismissing the AR is absolutely laughable to me. But tom each his or her own.

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[> [> [> Hey Oz sweetie *smooch* and thanks nephalim -- bubonicplague1348, 01:09:51 07/08/02 Mon (adsl-64-108-192-186.dsl.chcgil.ameritech.net/64.108.192.186)

The writers have decided to make Spike's "redemption" an issue. Not so with the other characters, though pretty much everyone on the show has commited some heinous act. It seems to be the focal point of his story, whereas it is not the focal point of the other characters' stories. Will Xander ever have to answer for getting people inadvertantly killed? Will Buffy have to answer for that horrible beating of Spike? Will Anya have to answer for wreaking thousands of years of vengeance? No. And I'm not necessarily saying that *should* be part of the story because eventually we'd get bogged down in some moral quagmire that would be as incessant as these board analyses. *wink wink*

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[> [> [> [> I love you too, Petunya:) -- Ozmandayus, 01:15:27 07/08/02 Mon (spider-wm041.proxy.aol.com/205.188.199.166)


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[> Young at Heart...my response to your question is simple -- Laura, 01:01:07 07/08/02 Mon (dyn216-8-153-85.sar.mnsi.net/216.8.153.85)

Some people want Spuffy and some want B/X and even B/A.
Being a Spuffy fan myself, as well as a Spike fan I think the soul is important for the development of Spike's story. We all know this is Buffy's show, but we also tune in to see the other characters like Willow, Xander, Giles, Anya, etc.

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[> We can fight about this forever. And you know why... -- Zahira, 01:44:03 07/08/02 Mon (spider-wn021.proxy.aol.com/205.188.197.156)

because in our society rape or AR is wrong,now shall we go to the questions?Can we forgive the abuser?yes we can,Can we forget the abuse?.Now this is the tricky question?If we can't,does that make us bad persons or humans?Does ME knew what the were doing we the scene?Maybe we never are going to find out.Is Spuffy is going to comeback?I think the answer that one "Ask me again why i NEVER gonna love you"
Now we know the answer to the last question...Death Either
because he come back evil or by sacrifice himself.

PS-I am a spuffy fan since the scene in the Bronze in School Hard.Now i can only hope they prove me wrong.

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