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Date Posted: 15:34:25 01/09/02 Wed
Author: multiple
Subject: 2ndGenPen's parting shot
In reply to: rsqarchive 's message, "January 2001" on 10:32:30 01/09/02 Wed


Author: 2ndGenPen "The Legend"
Subject: My parting words

Disclaimer: This post in no way represents the views of UBF or that of second gens.

System Requirements: This post works best when read with a sense of humor and understanding. The minimum requirements are having an open mind and lots of patience.

Background:
Once, long ago, Wesley Jun Jr. posted his short testimony on RSQUBF. He took a lot of flack for his testimony. One person who called himself the Real Christmas Messenger wanted to discredit Wesley by saying that Wesley was programmed by Samuel Lee. He went on to say that Wesley was a champion dancer in the UBF Hip Hop.

Sometime later, a person who called himself 2ndGenPen popped up on the scene. People liked to attack and argue with him because he was so blunt and in your face. Some people were jealous of his honesty and his ability to see with eyes unclouded by hate. They tried to destroy him, but they could not, and he rode off into the sunset vowing never to return except to post one last masterpiece.

Sometime after
this, on a different board, a person named Cali Raisin posted up a question for Ruth Chung. Most people immediately took this to be an attack on Ruth, including Ruth herself. And they began to attack Cali Raisin's motives. Some people said Cali Raisin was an anti-reformer, and others said that it was improper for Cali Raisin to have posted up such a question. And still others tried to discredit her by saying that she was in fact 2ndGenPen himself!

Side note:
There are two things wrong with Cali Raisin. One, she's a woosy, and two, people think her writing style is similar to mine. None of these things are her fault, but it's what got her into trouble.

Cali Raisin, you're a woosy. Don't let these people step on you. Don't let them convince you that you did something wrong. Ruth talks about the importance of truth seeking, yet when someone asks her a question in the name of truth seeking, she gets defensive. In one of the responses to Jimmy Rhee's post concerning this topic, a person ended
their post by saying, "I want to be with believers who are willing to seek answers to tough questions without seeking to shame those who ask them." That's good stuff.

My point:
No one is seen as neutral on this website. Either you are for RSQUBF or against. If you don't hate Samuel Lee enough, or if you aren't outraged enough by UBF, then you are seen as a UBF supporter. Then people attack you, try to discredit you, convince you that you're wrong, and basically just give you a hard time. There's this guy who calls himself Marcos who posted some stuff up here and there. He wrote some over the top stuff, just spewing and ranting and insulting Samuel Lee and other people, and it was so obviously full of hate. He clearly had some issues. But no one said anything to him. Yet, when someone asks a question of Ruth, all of a sudden, that person is a UBF supporter, and her credibility must be destroyed and her motives must be slandered. It's like people who support RSQUBF are untouchable. If anyone tries to
question RSQUBF supporters, they are seen as the enemy, and they are either attacked or dismissed. Whatever happened to good old truth seeking and independent thought? Is that not allowed in RSQUBF? Could it be that this site is becoming just like the UBF they want to reform?

Wesley Jun, in his testimony said, "God's way is to pray and wait and accept whatever his will." In response to this, Real Christmas Messenger said, "If this is so, then nobody needs to go fishing, nobody needs to make an offering, nobody needs to bring anyone to Sunday service, etc. For all the above, bold action is demanded (by Lee?). Have special meetings, charts on the wall, make ten phone calls every night. But suddenly when it is time to confront unrepentant and wicked Lee, why is it time to just pray and accept God's will?" In Ruth's testimony she says, "My strategy, like Jimmy Rhee's, has been to patiently and quietly pray for God's will to be done in UBF in His time." So how come no one complains when Ruth and Jimmy
Rhee uses the same term?

Want another example? Cali Raisin's first post said, "I liked your testimony. But i have one question. Around the time you decided to leave UBF, I heard a rumor that you left because of or that sometime afterwards you were living with a guy in sin. So is it true? Because if it is, then that puts a whole different light on your testimony." This post stirred up a lot of controversy. 2G wrote a post that said, "I hope Ruth will address your question personally. But I know she didn't leave UBF because of mere religious differences. She left because of her experience of abuse as a teen when Samuel Lee showered her with his 'special' attention. I hope she can go into more detail on what his special attention consisted of." No one even replied to this one. Why not? Because 2G in things that he had posted up before, made it clear that he was a RSQUBF supporter. Cali Raisin did not.

And what about me? Since I have never declared my allegiance to RSQUBF, which looks to be done by
bad mouthing UBF and Samuel Lee, I have always been attacked from all sides. I made it clear that I was not denying or defending anything about UBF or Samuel Lee, yet people were relentless. Everything I said was scrutinized and questioned. People tried to find holes in my logic and insult me and provoke me. Even when I made peace with my greatest rival, X, he stopped talking to me. I wanted more than peace, X, I wanted fellowship. I really thought that we could form some kind of friendship and bridge the gap. But maybe you didn't want to waste your time with fellowship. Maybe debating is all that amuses you. Or maybe you think less of me because I'm not a RSQUBF supporter. You missed an opportunity, X. I thought that we could set the example for the people on this website by engaging in civil, peaceful conversation. I thought that if we all just cooperated, and talked about some mutual interests, we could erase the hate and increase the peace. Oh well.

I didn't see the parallels until I began
writing this. This website began with good intentions, but look at it now. RSQUBF suffers from some of the same problems it accuses UBF of. This website uses compassion as a front for a hate campaign against UBF. Rescue UBF? It sounds more like most people want to destroy it, or at least destroy Samuel Lee. People who don't swallow everything this site spoon feeds them, or people who think too independently are attacked, slandered, and dismissed. Ruth and others go on the offensive when a RSQUBF supporter's character is questioned. Yet, doesn't this site question Samuel Lee's character behind his back all the time? Could it be true that those who study evil are cursed to become it?

Miscellaneous Q & A with 2ndGenPen:
Where does the money go?
Honestly, I don't give a whoo whoo bleepity bleep. I give my tithe to God, and He knows it. If someone misuses it, then let them be judged. I don't care as long as the church is still standing and I have a place to pray and worship. If Samuel Lee wants to
use the money for a few of his needs, then he can be my guest. I mean, it's not like the guy has a job (and I wish people wouldn't spread rumors like the one about Samuel Lee getting Lasik done. Does anyone have real proof of this? The guy who wrote that rumor first only said it as an assumption and to take a shot at Samuel Lee. Find it and read it for yourself if you don't believe me).

What's up with arranged marriages?
I'm not against arranged marriages. What I am against is having all of them, one right after the other, on the Friday closest to Samuel Lee's birthday. I mean what's up with that? He might as well dress like Elvis and the orchestra should dress as mini-Jimi Hendrixes. And about forcing people to marry or having last minute marriages, I don't know much about that. I have no evidence to deny it or to prove it. If it does go on, then I definitely don't agree with it, but that's really all I can say about it.

Why are pictures doctored?
I don't read the newsletter, and I
hadn't heard that pictures were doctored until I read about it here. So what? I understand what the implications of such actions might be, but still, so what? I'm not saying it's right, I'm just saying that I don't give a whoo whoo bleepity bleep. Can't you guys argue about something else except petty pictures? There are bigger problems than doctored pictures. Some of you people are so uptight. Fighting over pictures? Damn.

Is Daniel Choi's real name Elian Gonzalez?
I wish that some of you guys wouldn't use Daniel Choi as a poster boy for your cause.

Why do I dislike Amy Young?
Last month I put something up in the guestbook, but it was erased. I knew that it would be so I have a hard copy of it. It was basically a harsh critique on Amy Young's testimony. Keep in mind that this next part was said satirically to illustrate the faultiness of Amy Young's testimony (as I saw it) and the language has been cleaned up slightly so as not to insult any Christian sensibilities. "Thank you so much
Amy. I always thought you were kind of a bleep and I always thought your husband was a bleep, but after reading your testimony, I think I love you. I never liked Little Sarah, and I especially never liked her father. But now thanks to your juicy tidbit about Little Sarah's adulterous affair, I have the fuel for the fire that will eventually consume Little Sarah, her husband, their three kids; Samuel Lee, his wife, the rest of his kids and grand kids; and eventually trickle down and consume the rest of UBF. And when the church is in its disarray, my group will take over. This is the dawn of the reformation, the new UBF. And if all this is a sin, well, tie a millstone around your neck because you are the whore that gave birth to us." I go on to say, "Amy, you of all people have no right to air other people's dirty laundry. It's hurtful whether it's true or not. You could have kept Little Sarah's identity confidential. You could have used different names, but you did not. Do you understand the consequences
this information will have (even if it is false)? The repercussions? I think you do, and I think that was your main reason for doing it." My main complaint with Amy Young's testimony was that she peppered it with all her holy talk when it was so obviously a very bitter testimony. I admit that at first I wanted to believe it because I'm not a big fan of Little Sarah or Samuel Lee, but without solid proof, I have to give Little Sarah the benefit of the doubt. Amy Young can believe it all she wants, but she was not a witness to the crime, only someone repeating and believing what one woman told her. So Jimmy Rhee, I don't hear you complaining that Amy Young's testimony is improper.

Why is RSQUBF so amusing to me?
RSQUBF is like a tabloid. Not all of it is true or accurate, but it's still fun to read. Now, this is not to say that the things that actually happened to people are funny, but it's the way everyone else reports or talks about it. Some people readily believe everything. Some people jump on
the RSQUBF bandwagon. Some people obviously hate only Samuel Lee. I could go on and on, as long as this site is around. I would like to take this time and thank Tom Fosler for running such an amusing sight. I hope that this post gives back a little to a site I took so much from. Thanks Tom, now get a job.

Who am I?
I would love to reveal my identity because someone needs to take the credit for this work of art, but I have too many reasons why I shouldn't. But for those of you dying to know, here's a riddle. My name slant ryhmes with "Miami Party" when said in the ghetto ebonics way. If you can figure that out, keep it to yourself.

Final thoughts:
I once said that I stayed in UBF so I could be the voice of reason for my family and friends, but now, it looks like I have to be the voice of reason for most of the people here too. Open your eyes people. Don't let hate, or bitterness take you over. RSQUBF began with good intentions, but look at what it has become. It is bad for you, get out
while you can. I know I will. I have spent countless nights reading this site, and posting things up. I'm so addicted that I might have to check myself into rehab. This will definitely be the last time I visit this site again. So if anyone wants to talk trash behind my back, this is your chance. Goodbye, and may all of you find your way home.

Author: nonya
Subject: Re: My parting words

This website isn't so bad. I saw postive comments about UBF and Sam. However, no one improves anything by just handing out flowers and bouquets. This website gives UBF people a chance to really share and it is painful and even violent.

But sharing works. I thought 2ndgen were just a rude person. But through listening to you I understand you more. I respect you because you do infact seem to be a thinking person and not preprogrammed so I acknowledge that. The point is that through our exchanges we go from misunderstanding to understanding. We are not used to this in UBF so we need to practice more.

My point is that through honesty and continued dialogue UBF itself could solve most of its problems.

If Sam and the Reformers could get a chance to do this with an open mind, then I think it would do them a world of good.

Anyway, God bless you, and I hope you don't leave UBF. And I hope you always say what you think honestly and in love.

Author: The Return of X
Subject: Re: My parting words

You probably won't be reading this, but oh well...

By the way, I had a million responses to the points you raised in your message, but I decided not to respond to them-- we are at peace aren't we? I'll just respond to the parts directed at me:

"But maybe you didn't want to waste your time with fellowship. Maybe debating is all that amuses you. Or maybe you think less of me because I'm not a RSQUBF supporter." - None of these things are true. As nonya remarked, it seems to me that you're not one of the indoctrinated second gens, that you do have strong opinions about stuff that isn't preprogrammed by UBF (or by RsqUBF either). And because of that, even if I disagree with you, I can respect you as a person. It's just that once we decided to agree to disagree on most of the major issues, what else could we talk about on this site? After all, this site is devoted towards speaking out on the problems of UBF. What does football have to do with that?

Not that I wouldn't want to talk about
random stuff with you, 2ndGenPen. I think we'd get along pretty well in real life. But it's just hard to have general conversations and real fellowship anonymously on a message board.

Farewell, until we meet again in the kingdom...

Author: ChicagoX
Subject: The last keystrokes I'll waste on you

Thanks for addressing OUR issues rather the issue of people who have been hurt and wounded, rather than the issue of families torn apart, rather than the issues that matter. You could have taken time out from reading Maxim and done more research to find out whether the things posted here were true. You could have talked to Danny Choi, but you didn't. You could have tried harder to find out what happened to Jackie Lee, but you didn't. You could have asked and found out about Rebekah Yoon and Ruth Chung, but you didn't. Your pat answer was always, "I don't care," and you truly don't. Defensiveness, bitterness and hatred are your native languages (thanks for reposting your contribution to the guestbook), so when someone calls you on it, you don't know what they mean. Instead, you called others defensive, bitter and hateful. Your self-contradictions were so many that I wonder about your continued sanity. You truly are a product of Chicago UBF. Worst of all, as you hinted, you are not even a Christian. A
person
in Christ does not show the callous disregard as you have for other Christians who have been hurt. And now you run away with your tail between your legs for fear that you might have to start caring if you stay. The only thing I advise you to do is find Christ who died for your sins. Find Christ who has healed the many wounded and even strengthened them to be able to forgive. Find Christ who has given them joy and peace in spite of the things that have been done to them and their closest ones.

Author: 2G
Subject: Re: My parting words

I'm glad that this site could be a forum for you to openly express your thoughts, a luxury you don't have in Chicago UBF or even at home. In that way, RSQUBF is nothing like Chicago UBF.

Author: X
Subject: Re: The last keystrokes I'll waste on you

I never thought I'd say this, but ChicagoX, you go a little too far in criticizing our friend 2ndGenPen. I agree that he's apathetic, that though he claims to be a truth seeker, he doesn't really look into things, and that he does contradict himself left and right. But I don't remember him ever saying or hinting that he isn't a Christian. He did say something about having to find his own personal faith and about his current spiritual state not being the best, but unless I'm wrong, he considers himself a Christian, even if he doesn't SEEM to be one by the way he talks and thinks...

Author: A patient reader
Subject: Re: My parting words

Please read Joseph Park's testimony in this website. many are talking about their real sufferings in Chicago UBF seriously.

Author: real christmas messenger
Subject: Re: My parting words

2genpen,

Like you I love to read this board every day. I know a few 2ndgens personally, but find that I have little in common with them. I am an American ex-shepherd.

In many years in UBF I found that I experienced so many bitter, hateful, and shameful incidents. But because there was nothing to compare my experinces with, I endured them, believing this was God's way topurge me of my sinful nature, and then I would be worhty to be showered with great experinces in God. Through this board and through some of the ex-UBF members I could see what the problems were almost immediately.

Do you really know what you have in UBF? I know you think differently, but do you think you have it all figured out? What makes you so non-chalant about whther your offering is misused? What makes you minimize peoples' painful experinces to such a level of insignificance?

It is probably that your mind is well developed but the rest of you is immature. Friends, family, and negihbors are
extremely important. Jesus said to love God and your neighbor as yourself.

Secondly, though you try to reject the standard pat answers and responses taught by UBF, I don't think you have completely done that. I think you are just covering up UBF mindset with sarcasm, non-chalance, and trying to act "cool." These are the signs of immaturity. They are not bad, but they can be the basis for a bad attitude. And you need healing for this. And Wesley is more mature, but may have UBF pat answers deeply inscribed in his heart. They need to be taken out by the gospel of Jesus. I just wanted to convey that in a way I thought sounded like teenager talk.

I truly respect some 2ndgens for some things, but you are not superior to anybody. Neither am I. This is just talk between two people who are not friends but have some respect for each other.

Author: Jimmy Rhee
Subject: What this forum should seek.

After reading "My parting words" by 2ndGenPen "TheLegend", I feel sad about the way RSQUBF is going, though I know it is open to everyone.

I know it provides a place where people who have been hurt may bring up their wounds and seek for justice via so-called reform, and thereby bring their own healing.

Because it is open to everyone, we see many inappropreate and irresponsible remarks. To some, as to the author of "My parting words", it may be disappointing and even look dirty, unfair, full of trash-like slanders.

But there are also lots forgiving, and praying. I see a tremendous desires of the hearts seeking God's Kingdom and His righteousness, not just in the coming age, but right here with us and among us, the church of Christ Jesus our Lord. Otherwise they would never spend so much time and energy to read and write. I see the same desire in the author of My Parting words, and I hope he or she may not part, but read, ignore some trash, find some jewels and encourage and be
encouraged.

Still I have to write some suggestions to those who run RSQUBF as well ast to all who visit this site, though I am also one of its vistors.

1. The current B.B. does easily distract the issues any one may bring up, by putting their responses right after the original article. As result, the file becomes long, with full of personal attacks, and the original issue becomes blurred or lost. I suggest to separate all the responses and put them right after its original article as a sub article with its own subject, so that anyone who doesn't want to read responses from anonymous, or with the unrelated topics may stip it.

2. Make a statement that declares which one you would delete or which one not. I read from time to time, some articles were deleted just because they were for UBF. Be patient even to the Critiques of RSQUBF. It is the way we bring any reform not only to UBF, but to ourselves, and not only that it will increase your credibility. Off course, you have all the
right to delete any, but according to the public statement of your policy and write a short explanation why you deleted.

3. Revealing personal matters: if this site is used for just personal attack, it is against the Lord and even against the very spirit of reform you want to bring. UBF uses such tactics, and we want to be different, not because we want to show them we are better, but because we want to obey our Lord. There are some exceptions allowed by the scriptures. It's about the leader's sin. "Do not entertain an accusation against an elder unless it is brought by two or three witnesses. Those who sin are to be rebuked publicly, so that the others may take warning."(1 Tim 5:19,20). These verses are well balaced. We have to be careful bring any accusation against the leaders. At the same time, it makes it clear that the leadership demand more severe accountibility in the proportion to its deligated authority as well as its associated special favor. To respond to "My Parting Words", I would admit
that I have not read through it. Even skimming made me sick. I hope that Amy might have written it after much prayer and having enough witnesses to stand before the church. I donot have any judgement in this matter, either against S.L. and LT.S or against Amy, for it is beyond my boundary and I don't know the facts. I can only say, if Amy has enough witnesses, and if what she says that those who tried to bring this issue in UBF were severely rebuked, then her action is scriptural, because it is the only way she could bring justice to the church.

So remember, leaders are not completely immune to any critique, especially their sin is related to other's wounds, and even life and death. So if you are a fellowship leader, you are accountible to your fellowship members. When your sin is exposed, by any one that is by the Lord behind as it is, you must be ready to admit it before your fellowship members. Likewise, the Lord allows S.L. to go through this kind of public scrutiny after all the chances of
repentance were given. Didn't He send many prophets and His servants to him? Don't you know that we who teach will be judged more strictly? Don't you know why the Lord allows so many witch-hunters? I believe: so that he may still have a chance to repent and be snatched away from eternal damnation.

As for other personal attacks, gossiping, so common in UBF where they don't know the basic scriptural understanding how private info gotten via so-called Sogams, or life testimonies are kept confidential, I see we do the same things on this site. We should reform ourselves in this matter. Why are you so curious about other's life? Is it the desease we have gotten from the gossiping life of UBF? Don't go beyond your boundary. Matt 18:15-18 gives us a clear guidance. First one qualified to concern about other's life is brother(including sister). Are you his or her brother? Ya, we are all brothers and sisters in Christ. The scripture does not use the "brother" in such generic term. Are you have close
relationship? Do you love? Are you ready to protect her and give your life for her? I don't think anyone using anonymous name can have real concern more than just curiousity. So check out how much we have become the victims of UBF mentality and pray that you may be free from it.

Next, think about why it is between two of you (Matt 18:15). If you are a real friend in the Lord, you must be ready to cover the one you're concerned with love. The purpose of the confrontation is not exposing, but winning the soul.

4. To all who write something: Speak the truth in love! (Eph 4:15). After you write something, pray again, and check out if there is anything out of your bitterness that may defile many. In this matter, I would suggest webmaster to implement one option to edit before the final submission.

Finally at the end let's express our readiness to listen to the critiques, even admitting we may be wrong in some sense and asking for forgiveness if it may hurt any.

I want to avoid any
dogmatic statements and fails to do so many times out of my own immaturity. So all I can do is showing my readiness to listen and apology.

I want to communicate with UBFers, without saying you are all wrong, and I am right. If I do, please forgive me. The very reason I pray the Lord bring any reform is for us to be set free from this dogmatic spirit that controls others so much. So I still fight against the same thing within me while I learn how to speak the truth in love. The truth doesn't have to be dogmatic. It doesn't fear any questions against it. For even if you say the earth is flat, the truth cannot be flat.

Lord, have mercy on us, UBFers, RSQUBFers, casual visitors like me to grow in speaking the truth in love.

One word (UBFer like it and RSQUBFers hopely may not dislike): Don't try to win the arguments, but to win the souls who are captives to lies.

Author: Evil Nagger
Subject: Re: What this forum should seek.

"I suggest to separate all the responses and put them right after its original article.
... I would suggest webmaster to implement one option to edit before the final submission."

I doubt the webmaster has any influence on the layout and functionality of this message board. It's just a primitive free message board, financed through often very incommoding advertising banners and pages, as is the homepage on "50megs", which is often down or very slow. Would be nice to have a more professional web site. Also, what about the long anounced chat rooms? Why not pay a little more for a more professional web site without this advertising stuff? Don't be stingy "like lepers" ;-) (ouch, evil, evil insider joke, please forgive me).

Author: Tony
Subject: Re: My parting words

Marcos,

I don't blame you for getting offended by 2ndGenPen's post about you. I don't blame you for being angry or just thinking he is an idiot or whatever. But I do ask you this, keep in mind that this message board represents real people and real lives. I know that 2ngGenPen is very immature, but think about it, he's probably a sixteen year old kid, can you really blame him for being sensitive to people attacking UBF (which he considers to be his family and all he knows anyway). I mean how would you feel if someone was saying all kinds of stuff about your family on a message board?

All I am saying is that if you consider yourself to be a Christian, please try to be understanding, and see people as Jesus sees them through the eyes of compassion and forgiveness.

Please read the post I made On Bitterness and think about it. Let's make this chat room a healthy place where people can encourage each other and actually help each other. When people inside UBF can see that reformers aren't
just a goup of bitter Sammy haters, and can see that we really do care about the issues and each other their hearts will be melted. But until then they can still say to themselves well ex-UBFers are just weak and angry and couldn't take up the cross.

Thanks for listening, lets make a positive difference!

Author: Marcos
Subject: Re: My parting words

Offended....I am not. That is the least of my concerns. Neither am I angry or bitter about that child's comments. If I was I could have lashed out and people would have really noticed. Also, I am well aware about the realities of life. For example, even though I am a Christian I have never, ever lost touch with the reality that we live in. Religion is not my 'opium' like it can be for so many people (whoever they may be). I thank God for this virtue because it has prevented me from being brainwashed by opportunistic pastors. I actually take things with a grain of salt. (The truth hurts to those who are only guilty of it.) Whatever it is said by people is really no skin of my nose. If I tend to respond harshly to comments made by people such as Sam, I am just giving them a taste of their own medicine.They don't aplogize about hurting the feelings of others. I'll do this much though, Tony, I'll watch more closely what I post here from now on. Just to show that there are no hard feelings. Thank you
for your suggestions, I really appreciate them.

In Christ.

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  • Damon Londrigan's Denial -- multiple, 15:36:31 01/09/02 Wed
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