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Date Posted: 11:28:54 01/09/02 Wed
Author: multiple
Subject: ambivalence toward abortion in UBF
In reply to: rsqarchive 's message, "January 2001" on 10:32:30 01/09/02 Wed


Author: watcher
Subject: ambivalence toward abortion in UBF

I have heard members of the Board of Trustees in Chicago UBF express very ambivalent views on abortion. Many of them think it is good that abortion is legal and that it has a place in society. Consider that they often parrot Samuel Lee's views on such issues. Also consider Samuel Lee's steadfast support of Bill Clinton, under whom the freedoms of anti-abortion protestors in America have been severely curtailed. I think some of their ambivalence toward abortion may be cultural. I know abortion is legal in Korea and carries less stigma that it does here. Anyone know how long abortion has been legal in Korea?

Author: anonymous
Subject: Re: ambivalence toward abortion in UBF

You mean Samuel Lee is both a Clinton supporter and pro-abortion?
Gee, that is most amazing since Sam's most ardent supporters are fiercely anti-Clinton and pro-life...this shows how little they really know about the man.

Concerning the abortion issue, I felt Koreans don't think it is that big of deal. However, here in the US, your stand on abortion is synonymous with your faith.

Lord, let me out here...I can't take it any longer....

Author: watcher
Subject: Re: ambivalence toward abortion in UBF

Yes, you'll hear many testimony sharers rail against abortion and against Clinton in Chicago UBF. When some student shares something about the evil of abortion at the Friday meeting, it's funny how little reaction the Koreans missionaries show, including Samuel Lee.

Author: A fetus is a baby.
Subject: Re: ambivalence toward abortion in UBF

This is beginning to make sense. I'll have to be honest with you, when I first heard about this abortion thing I really couldn't accept it as true, but I'm beginning to think it highly likely. Once again this is appearing to be one of those cultural differences which seperate Koreans and Americans.

I did a little research and found out some interesting facts about abortions in Korea. Here are a couple quotes:

"[In Korea]Two attempts were made to LEGALIZE induced abortion with the pressure of Protestant religious groups and politicians in 1966 and 1970 but they were defeated. A Maternal and Child Health Law, however, was passed in 1973 by the Extraordinary State Council (martial law authority) which set out conditions in which abortions could be performed."

This would explain the ambivilence of some of the older UBF members towards the abortion issue, the Protestants in Korea actually supported legalizing abortions!

"So permissive is the prevailing public attitude to abortion
that more than half of those who responded to a structured abortion survey in Seoul in 1991 did not know anything about laws regulating abortion and less than a quarter who had abortions knew it was illegal at the time of surgery. And many of those who experienced an abortion in the past did not 'feel sorry or regret.' 49 percent 'felt good to have it done' or 'did not have any special feeling about it,' 26 percent."

"Unlike the strident and wrenching issue it is in the West, abortion in Korea is uneventful and performed as a matter of course without second thought (except among the very religious) despite its illegality. The operation can be gotten very easily anywhere in the country at most private gynecological clinics (small hospitals) or at larger institutions."

"Korea has often been called an "abortion paradise" by many social commentators for reasons set out above. Very accurate statistics for induced abortion in the nation are unavailable because of its illegal status. A common estimate
cited in the press and by commentators is that as many as a million to a million and a half abortions are performed annually in Korea."

"More than half of Korean wives have experienced an abortion and about one third have had two or more according to surveys. The abortion rate among young married and single women is accelerating sharply in very recent years as well. Regular abortion seems to have become accepted cultural behavior in modern Korea."

I had no idea! As an American Christian I thought the abortion issue was pretty obvious, but to Korean Christians it is still largely acceptable!

You can find the article I quoted at http://www.buddhapia.com/eng/tedesco/kjabo.html

and another good one at http://dhushara.tripod.com/book/orsin/rites/korea.html

Author: anon
Subject: Re: ambivalence toward abortion in UBF

Seems to be alot of things that Americans take seriously that are regarded as ambivalent. The same is true of democratic principles.

Should they be pushing so many extra-Biblical values upon us?

Author: watcher
Subject: Re: ambivalence toward abortion in UBF

There may be a cultural difference between Koreans and Americans in their views on abortion. But I think both Koreans and Americans are agreed that exercising one's authority over a woman to force her to have an abortion is universally wrong. The woman described by Jimmy Rhee was obviously distraught by what she had been ordered and coerced to do. By the way, if what you quoted is true, the Korean Protestant Church is going to have a lot to answer for.

Author: watcher
Subject: Re: ambivalence toward abortion in UBF

Koreans are ambivalent toward democratic principles? Isn't just the opposite true? Also, is democracy really extra-Biblical? I think the early Church was quite democratic, much more so than UBF.

Author: anonymous
Subject: Democracy in Korea

It is true that South Korea has some democratic tendencies, as its communist opponent, North Korea, is communist. But because of the fact that Korea, unlike the United States, has only recently been exposed to democratic ideals (such ideals are not really present in traditional Eastern cultures and philosophies), there's also a tendency to reject democracy and hold to a very tightly controlled hierarchical system, very much like Confucian social order. If you look at the history of Korea over the last 50 years, there are all kinds of tight-fisted regimes and military coups, oppressing the common people (take, for example, the slaughter by paratroopers of more than 140 civilians in Kwangju in 1980).

So it is very true that Koreans have an ambivalent view of democracy in general. By the way, I'm a Korean, so this isn't coming out of some kind of racist prejudice. But it is quite interesting to note that the leadership of UBF is very similar to the leadership of many S. Korean generals and dictators, and
in other ways very similar to Mao and Kim Il Sung, with all the tight controls on the people and the accompanying ultra-hero worship.

Author: watcher
Subject: Re: Democracy in Korea

I'm also Korean, but very young, and trying to understand. If Koreans have an ambivalent view of democracy in general, what were all those students protesting for all the time? And doesn't the ascendancy of Kim DaeJung mean that Koreans are not ambivalent about democracy?

Author: Tony
Subject: Re: Democracy in Korea

Watcher, you have brough up an important point. If we say "Koreans beleive this...." or "Americans beleive this..." we are treading the dangerous waters of stereotyping a people. I'm just learning about the attitude towards abortions in Korea, but I know plenty about the attitudes in America. As our recent, and quite close Presidential election shows our country is divided almost in half on this issue of pro-life and pro-choice. So although I don't know much about Korean public opinion, I'm sure there are many points of view just like America.

As far as democracy goes, I'll have to make a point as a Christian, and not just an American. Democracy in America is going to be much closer to a Biblical government than a confucianistic governmet will ever be. Confucious was not a Christian, whereas democracy in America was established by Christians. There is a certain phrase we use called the "christian/judeo ethic" which played a crucial role in this countries establishment and governmental agencies. Also
Jesus was a strong advocate of a sort of democracy by showing that the poor were much closer to the Kingdom than the rich, and putting everone on an even plain as sinners, and children of God. This was quite revolutionary to the Jewish patriarchical social structure of the time, which was similar in some ways to Asian socio/political hierarchies.

So whats my point? These days Korea is changing, and many more people are beginning to accept democracy and capitalism for various social/religious/economic reasons. But the main body of rulers in UBF is very old fashioned, and have basically stagnated in cultural developemnt from a Korean 1950s world view.

Author: anonymous
Subject: Re: Democracy in Korea

watcher, I bet you're a young second gen in Chicago UBF. You seem to know a lot of the stuff going on there. Well, I'm a second gen too, but one who's left UBF (I've posted as "response to oregano" and "annoyed?" in Wesley Jun Jr.'s subject). It's good to see a second gen who's actually seeking the truth on these boards.

As to your question, most people seem to be a little confused as to what the word "ambivalent" means. It doesn't mean "apathetic" or "uncaring". Instead, it means "having contradictory attitudes towards something or someone."

So when I say Koreans are ambivalent towards democracy, I mean they love it and hate it at the same time (though different segments of Korean society are doing the loving or hating). Many young students were pro-democracy demonstrators (though a good number of the demonstrations were actually the result of Marxist students who were demanding reunification under North Korea's rule), while many military and political leaders were in the totalitarian
camp.

With Kim Dae Jung's election, things have changed a bit, moving the balance closer to the democracy-loving camp, since he was a dissident most of his life. So perhaps some reform has come to the Korean political system. But then again, who knows if he falls out of favor or if another military leader decides to start a coup?

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  • A Spiritual Caste System? -- Anon, 11:30:14 01/09/02 Wed
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