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Date Posted: 16:52:58 01/09/02 Wed
Author: multiple
Subject: Chicago X, UBF Spy?
In reply to: rsqarchive 's message, "January 2001" on 10:32:30 01/09/02 Wed


Author: 2ndGenX
Subject: Chicago X, UBF Spy?

Chicago X loves to reply to almost eveyone's responses. X loves to battle even honorable men like Dr. Hong. X knows a bit too much information. Word is out that X is the spy coming every Sunday, to every Friday meeting, and even to Monday meeting. Who is X? Don't worry, X spends too much time at the PC. X is just an internet junkie. X , I hope you get off your butt and do some real worshipping. Otherwise, you'll become a pillar of salt in your computer chair.

Author: I'm not ChicagoX
Subject: Re: Chicago X, UBF Spy?

HHH - DX Gen, "honorable men like Dr. Hong"? I think you need to put your glasses on or something. Dr. Hong has admitted he posted as "Honest", making all kinds of wild and untrue allegations against Rebekah Yoon and Jackie Lee. Would you really call that "honorable" behavior? Or maybe you believe that "honorable" behavior is whatever it takes to defend UBF?

As for being an internet junkie, that's not much of an insult. I would prefer being called an internet junkie than actually being a Samuel Lee groupie.

Author: ChicagoX
Subject: Re: Chicago X, UBF Spy?

Correction: I'm a RSQUBF junkie, not an internet junkie.
As for real worship, you're right. I'd better find a way to do some real worship because Ron Ward reading something he didn't write every week just isn't getting through. I mean, Samuel Lee has been so occupied with the worldwide call for Reform that he's just been recyclying old messages for the last few weeks.
I'm flattered that you think I know too much.

Author: I am ChicagoX
Subject: I'm shaking in my boots

What's the worst they can do to me if they found out who I am? KICK ME OUT??!! Nevertheless, I'd like to stay because there are people here I love.
By the way, your "honorable man" also seems to have a bit of an Internet addiction with his rantings on http://answer.ubf.or.kr.

Author: Anon
Subject: Re: Chicago X, UBF Spy?

Such a wonderful atmosphere of open communication in Chicago UBF isn't there? It's so open that people have to become "spies" to voice their opinion about what's been going on there. Even loyal members have to use pseudonyms for fear of being rebuked for visiting the site.

Author: Marcos
Subject: Re: Chicago X, UBF Spy?

Dr. Hong honorable??? His temper is like that because he imitates Christ??!!! Please.... He better thank God he was never MY bible teacher or I would have kicked his sorry --- starting from America all the way back to Korea! Also don't flatter yourselves by thinking that we want to touch Samuel "Jabba the Hun" Lee. It would be a total waste of time and effort.

Author: 2ndGenX
Subject: Spy Report

Hey UBFers: for those of us who come to this site. Let's do a little detective work and hunt down the Spy/spies who are bold about speaking against us and remain in the ministry. (You know : ChicagoX, HNWP, etc...) If you have any ideas, clues, let's reveal them. Thought it would be fun. Especially, when dealing with RSQUBF people which really stands for (Remove Sam Quickly Until Banished Forever). What a heartless motive. God Bless.

Author: 2ndGenX
Subject: Re: To the Lee Jugend

Likewise, to you ChicagoX. I am not following Sam as a leader. My leader is Jesus Christ. I want you to be in my ministry. But, I wish you wouldn't masquerade and pretend each Sunday that everything is ok in your heart. If you have a shepherd talk to him/her and get this stuff out. If you are a shepherd, then I believe you must keep your personal mission going and accept Sam's orders as what they are - divine training. After all, be thankful that you were not born a slave, or in a third world country. You know, even Peter says, "slaves obey your masters" to display good character in glorifying God. But we are not slaves, and to think that UBF training is slavery is wrong. Let the reform issue fall into God's hands. Happy hunting? I'm sorry, but this all seems like RSQUBF/Reform UBF is hunting Samuel Lee. I don't think any person should be judged by men even if they are guilty. That is my problem with this. Don't worry, I'm cancelling my spy hunting trip. You left a clever trail at Schiller Park, a dial in
to Loyola and UIC. You're smart. But let's stop with the hide and seek and be honest before God and his servants.

Author: Disciple
Subject: Re: Spy Report

All this spy talk is immature, unless you want to converse about the passage "Rahab and the Spies". But, reformer,I don't think anyone has to fasten a seatbelt. This is not a roller coaster ride, and it is not the Freefall at great America. I'm sorry to inform you that religious organizations of all kinds are in no danger of being swept away. We have freedom of religion in America. I would like the Moonies swept away. I would like godless cults swept away. But all my threats and bible beating can not touch them either. You call yourself `reformer', but your message sounds like you want to be a `destroyer'. I hope not.

Author: Anon
Subject: Re: Spy Report

***Special report****

Many people feel that Samuel Lee is the spy master of UBF and that he encourages UBFers to report about each other. That is why there is not much friendship and trust among coworkers. Rumors, inducing questions and even eagerated and distorted reports are some of tools.

* Appeal to UBfers. please practice non-cooperation with evil practices of UBF leadership. Please pray for reform.

* Don't look for brave people of clear conscinece inside UBF. Look for the subtle and overt evil practices of the spy master who is Samuel Lee.

* There may be many Chicago Xs and HTCNs or whatever. They are the conscience of UBF. Please support their cuases. How many innocent people should fall victims before UBF is reformed and restored? How many times must false accusations against people of conscience be made? The answer is not blown in the wind. God is living. He will surely answer many people's outcries and reform UBF, I believe.

Author: ChicagoX
Subject: Re: To the Lee Jugend

I have many reasons that keep me in Chicago UBF besides the need to expose real evil, past and present. One thing that keeps me in UBF is my ministry. But I do not advertise the greatness of UBF or SL to the people I study with, and you'll probably say ditto. I also cannot invite them (more like pressure them into coming) to the worship service or conferences because I am not proud of what they'll see and hear. I can only encourage them to accept Christ and go elsewhere for their spiritual growth because I don't want them to be abused, and I especially don't want to be told to abuse them. This makes me an "unfruitful" shepherd, but God'll be the judge of that. I do and have accepted SL's orders, abusive or otherwise, very dutifully for close to two decades. I don't obey his orders begrudgingly. I jump up and smile while my heart bleeds. Like I said, I have many reasons for continuing to fit into Chicago UBF. And I do believe that SL's orders have been training, though not "divine" training. I would call
it
"divine" training if it was from a righteous man and a man who geniunely loves others in the grace and love of Christ. SL is not that man because in his training I have seen the elements of sadism, arbitrary cruelty, injustice, and the need to assert his authority by any means among other sinful elements. I know that you yourself have seen these elements or heard of them. I do, however, consider SL's training to be God's training for me because they have taught me to be incredibly loyal, tolerant, forgiving and patient. I do believe that God had a purpose in this. The loyalty, patience, forgiveness and tolerance that God has taught me has born fruit in my happy and harmonious marriage. But I'm not going to kid you or myself. I have been hurt and bear wounds and scars that only Christ and time will heal. So why have I become ChicagoX, who would "boldly speak against God's servants?" It's because I have reached the limits of my tolerance, patience and loyalty. (Forgiveness I still have in reserve as
Christ has
it in reserve for me.) With a problem child (or with a problem leader), you have to put your foot down sooner or later or they never change or grow. I guess I reached my limits when I read the Calabrese's testimony (I knew them) and the 1989 open letter (and now the 1976 open letter). My patience, tolerance and loyalty have limits, so sue me. But try to understand. You say you aren't "following Sam as a leader," but I know how loyal you try to be and how forgiving, tolerant and patient you are also; that's demanded of anyone growing up in Chicago UBF. I don't judge you for it. Rather, I love and admire you for it. But will you have to endure many hurts like me and reach your limits like me someday? Let's hope not. Let's hope you'll get to grow up in a reformed UBF (unless you're already grown up) in which we don't have to say, "At least we're not in a third world country." And don't kid yourself. The reform issues mostly center on Samuel Lee, just like they did in 1976 and 1989. He's being
judged by men who
have been loyal, patient, forgiving and tolerant far longer than you or I, but who have also reached their limits. What reform can happen without judging? They're judging but not condemning. They're asking for changes for the glory of God. Are changes so bad? You think they did this without praying? Without bringing the reform issues to God? We pray and act; we are UBF. As for me, I myself am also changing, though slowly. I saw people like you as the enemy a few days ago, but no longer. I considered SL beyound redemption a few days ago, but I realized that this crisis must be taking its toll on him at his age, so I have begun to pray for him, that he may be honest before God and God's people before his time comes. It's good that you've stopped hunting me, but Saul told David that a couple of times. Even if you do stop hunting, I have to go on like I'm being hunted because there is no open communication about reform in Chicago, though there is open communication about other things. It's
good that you stop
hunting because if you ever succeed in unmasking me, your heartbreak will make you wish you hadn't. Humbly,

ChicagoX

Author: Anonymous2
Subject: Re: To the Lee Jugend

"I don't think any person should be judged by men even if they are guilty."

"EVEN IF THEY ARE GUILTY"?! Huh? So let's get rid of our entire criminal justice system. Most denominations have their judiciaries, in which crimes committed by leaders within the church are tried. But you wouldn't think that was right, either, huh?

What do you think of these passages then:

1Cor. 5:12 "What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside?"

1Cor. 6:3-5 "Do you not know that we will judge angels? How much more the things of this life! Therefore, if you have disputes about such matters, appoint as judges even men of little account in the church! I say this to shame you. Is it possible that there is nobody among you wise enough to judge a dispute between believers?"

Sounds pretty biblical to me.

Author: Disciple
Subject: Re: To the Lee Jugend

Anonymous2, I am not referring to legal or political judgment, but spiritual judgment. You may like to use references from St. Paul, he was a blessed man. His teachings are keen and help us to live in a godly manner in this political, ungodly world. But spiritually speaking, we must listen to our Lord before men: "Do not judge, or you too will be judged". Scary. I think many people who have submitted comments on this website are playing a little to close to the fire. Let's not be one of them.

Author: Cocoon
Subject: Re: judgment

Unfortunately, that verse is used by 2nd Gen X and others to suppress *any* judgment, ethical, legal or otherwise and to enforce "spiritual order." There are many judgemental people in the world, even Christians, for whom this verse is perfect. They seem to judge and criticize everything like it's a sport and generally make life hard for everybody. They should listen to this word of Jesus. We should not be chronically judgemental, but we should point out real sin when we see it, even in our leaders. I agree that we should not stand in the place of God and pronounce someone worthy of heaven or hell. That's just plain wrong, but someone I know prounces people worthy of hell all the time.

Author: Context, baby!
Subject: Re: To the Lee Jugend

FYI, if you read the context of the passages I quoted from 1Corinthians, you'd realize that Paul is talking about setting up judges WITHIN the church to arbitrate between disputes and sins within the church, not about political or civil judgement.

I am well aware of what Jesus says, but at the same time, there are contrasting verses in the Bible that talk about discerning, rebuking, and judging. In fact, if you look at the context of Jesus' "Do not judge" in Matthew 7, you'll see that what he's talking about is hypocrisy, condemning others when we ourselves are not repentant.

Jesus himself was quite harsh in his criticism of the Pharisees, proclaiming woes on them. And if you're going to say it's because he was the Son of God, then take a look at how Paul judges those who perverted the gospel in Gal. 1:8 "But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned!"

There is a place for realizing our own faults and
sins and not being overly judgemental, but there is also a place for rebuking and pointing out sins, particularly when the people involved refused to repent.

The same Jesus who said, "Do not judge" also said this, Mat 18:15-17: "If your brother sins against you, go and show him his fault, just between the two of you. If he listens to you, you have won your brother over. But if he will not listen, take one or two others along, so that 'every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.' If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector."

Author: glad-to-be-out 2d Gen
Subject: To 2d gen x

By your name, I assume you're a missionary's kid in UBF. I WAS once one, and would like to address some of your points:

1. "I believe you must keep your personal mission going and accept Sam's orders as what they are - divine training."

WHY? I myself didn't realize what I was missing until I started attending a regular church. Outside UBF, I saw that rather than obeying people, the focus was on deepening our personal relationship with God, so that WE personally could hear God's voice in our lives. Yes, there was still some sort of heirarchical structure, but no one gave "orders." Individuals were encouraged to pray for personal guidance from God, not to "just obey."

To accept any man's (yes, sam l. is a MAN) orders as divine training is dangerous, for this implies that men can be inerrant.

2. "After all, be thankful that you were not born a slave, or in a third world country."

What's the point of focusing on non-issues? This kind of attitude encourages one to
ESCAPE from one's problems by focusing on worse things. Such an attitude means you never really resolve your problems, and that as a result, you never grow.

3. "You know, even Peter says, "slaves obey your masters" to display good character in glorifying God. But we are not slaves, and to think that UBF training is slavery is wrong."

The Bible also says that it is for freedom that Christ has set us free. I didn't understand what freedom really was until I left UBF. WE often chain OURSELVES by thinking we have to do certain things to please God and to earn God's favor. We lose sight of the freedom that God gave us through Christ. The truth is, we've already received (not earned)God's favor, and nothing we do can make God love us any more or any less. Fear of disapproval/punishment, therfore, no longer motivates us. Rather, love for what we ALREADY have in Christ motivates us.

It is too easy to lose sight of this freedom in UBF. Those who feed many sheep are openly praised and
admired. Those who don't are pitied and made to feel as if they have somehow missed the mark. People live under the fear of human disapproval and under the fear of "training." I would say this isn't too far from spiritual slavery.

4. "I don't think any person should be judged by men even if they are guilty."

Your recurring theme seems to be that people ignore their conscience and ignore the issues. For example, when something is bad, just be thankful we're not starving in some third world country. And when someone hurts others, don't do anything about it since no one should judge another.

I agree that we should not judge others out of self-righteousness. But we MUST use our discernment (that comes from God) and judge our brothers and sisters in love.

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  • UBF Alumni -- Jacque, 16:53:59 01/09/02 Wed
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