Reflection of a "Second-Gen" & the Cali Raisin controversy -- RSQUBF Discussion Boards 2001 highlights

[ Show ]

Support VoyForums

[ Shrink ]

VoyForums Announcement: Programming and providing support for this service has been a labor of love since 1997. We are one of the few services online who values our users' privacy, and have never sold your information. We have even fought hard to defend your privacy in legal cases; however, we've done it with almost no financial support -- paying out of pocket to continue providing the service. Due to the issues imposed on us by advertisers, we also stopped hosting most ads on the forums many years ago. We hope you appreciate our efforts.

Show your support by donating any amount. (Note: We are still technically a for-profit company, so your contribution is not tax-deductible.) PayPal Acct: Feedback:

Donate to VoyForums (PayPal):

[ Login ] [ Contact Forum Admin ] [ Main index ] [ Post a new message ] [ Search | Check update time | Archives: 1, 2, 3 ]

[ Next Thread | Previous Thread | Next Message | Previous Message ]

Date Posted: 11:58:11 01/09/02 Wed
Author: multiple
Subject: Reflection of a "Second-Gen" & the Cali Raisin controversy
In reply to: rsqarchive 's message, "January 2001" on 10:32:30 01/09/02 Wed

Author: Ruth Chung
Subject: Reflection of a "Second-Gen"

Dear Wesley and other UBF "second-gen"s,
I am glad to hear that you have been able to grow in a personal faith that allows you to discern your own spiritual calling and remain faithful to the Lord, even as you have been witness to some strange and disturbing goings-on in the world of UBF. I am also glad to hear that you are sticking it out for the time-being. UBF needs members like you to serve as one of the "voices of reason" to counter the blind obedience and lock-step marching that is too often the norm. If only that were more common...

I left UBF eight years ago, during college. At that time, fighting against Samuel Lee and my parents caused me so much spiritual agony and emotional pain, that the only thing I could do to save my own life and soul was to leave. At that time, there were no other "second-gen"ers my age in UBF, and many of the struggles that I endured were endured alone. I had to leave UBF because Samuel Lee and his institutions were an obstacle to the growth of my faith. I "ran
away" so that I could discover God for myself, because somehow I was convinced that the real God could not intend to cause me such harm.

After college, I was able to find a church community that I could truly embrace and call my spiritual home. It was a Korean American Methodist church in Manhattan. There, my wounds were healed, and there I came to truly know and love God. By God's grace, I worked through the painful experiences I had in my early Christian life, and became a leader in my church. In fact, God used my experiences to make me a better leader and lay minister for others. Slowly, my relationship with my parents has been restored, although we are still working on understanding each other better. (I suspect they still haven't given up the hope that I will return to UBF one day.) I also came to recognize long ago that it is because of UBF that I have such a strong, abiding faith in God. I owe my parents and UBF a debt of gratitude for planting in me the seeds of this faith, and a good
foundation in Bible study.

Despite all that I went through in my first twenty years of life in UBF, I am no longer bitter toward my parents and UBF, or even to Samuel Lee. When I visit my parents in Chicago, I often go to UBF services to please my parents. I tolerate the dry, repetitive sermons because I know it's important to them that I be there. I can even shake Samuel Lee's hand without feeling like puking. Pretty amazing, isn't it? Somehow, God gives me enough strength to forgive and love them all, and to recognize that while there are certain aspects of UBF that certainly are cult-like, which I abhor, almost all of the people in UBF are genuinely committed Christians, whose personal lives are imitative of Christ's humble, servant life. My own parents are evidence enough of the kind of genuine compassion and kindness that is typical of many missionaries and shepherds. For 24 years, my parents have welcomed the spiritually sick into their home: alcoholics, the mentally ill, social deviants,
the brokenhearted and despaired, with no expectation of any kind of compensation. These were not "full-time shepherd material". Yet, my parents continued to accept and minister to these needy people, even when they didn't seem to improve, or robbed my parents, or went away for long periods. I have always been puzzled by their selfless giving - and I have come to see this as evidence, not of some ridiculous allegiance to UBF and its leader, but of the product of my parents' real experience of God's love in their own lives. Indeed, there are many examples of such broken-hearted shepherds within UBF, who aggressively seek out those who need help - and do the best they can to provide that help. These people are not trying to give Samuel Lee his numbers - although that pressure is certainly there. They experienced the amazing, unconditional love of Christ, and are genuinely trying to imitate the life of Christ, who healed the wounds of people everywhere he went and ministered to the sick and needy. These
people are dedicated to UBF because it was through UBF that they experienced forgiveness, new life, and true joy, and because they truly believe that people need to hear the Good News. This is the core strength of UBF, and this is why the ministry has endured, despite setbacks and despite misguided leadership.

There are many things I could say to bash UBF and some of its leaders, but I won't. My strategy, like Jimmy Rhee's, has been to patiently and quietly pray for God's will to be done in UBF in His time. I do not have the strength or the purpose to fight or try to tear down Samuel Lee's UBF. I do not see that as my mission in life and I will not waste energies that could be used more constructively. And so I applaud those "reform" leaders, who have broken off and formed their own ministry. Schisms are not always a bad thing, especially when they lead to a strengthening of the church, as the Protesant Reformation did.

So why am I posting this message? I write in the hopes that you and
other "second-gen"s will be able to see that your dilemma is not unresolvable. There are many different churches out there to choose from because there are many different kinds of Christians as there are parts of the body. Simply being born into UBF does not mean that you were destined to remain in it. Choosing another church does not necessarily mean that you are rejecting God, or His will. However, if you feel convicted that you are being called by God to be a second-generation missionary within UBF, then listen to your heart. As a high school student, I felt utterly trapped, being completely dependent on my parents. I was afraid of losing my parents' favor and support, and of possibly defying God's will for me. I thought disobedience to UBF was the same as disobedience to God. But I was wrong, and I eventually came to see that. God has blessed me more than I could have imagined after leaving UBF, and he continues to guide my life. I hope that more "second-gen"s will seek the truth, rather than
just accepting everything they are taught, and pray for discernment in their lives - recognizing that they have choices, that they are not trapped. And if your parents are anything like mine, they will eventually recognize that they have to accept and love you, whatever choice you end up making.

I leave you with a favorite prayer of mine that I keep on my desk and in my heart always:

"Lord, make me an instrument of Thy peace.
Where there is hatred, let me sow love;
where there is injury, pardon; where there is doubt, faith;
where there is despair, hope;
where there is sadness, joy;
where is darkness, light.

O Divine Master,
Grant that I may not so much seek to be consoled, as to console;
not so much to be understood, as to understand;
not so much to be loved, as to love.

For it is in giving that we receive,
it is in pardoning that we are pardoned;
it is in dying that we are born again to eternal life."

~St. Francis

Your
sister in Christ,
Ruth Chung

Author: Isaac E. Choi
Subject: More "Second-Gen" Reflections

Well, seeing the good examples of my noonas in Christ, I will speak out as well. I've been watching this board for some time and have been reluctant to say anything, as my parents and my sister are still in UBF. But I hope and pray that when they see me speaking out, they won't think it's me attacking UBF, but just me sharing my experiences and thoughts, and perhaps longing for a kind of further reconciliation with them.

For those who may not know me, I'm the older brother of Daniel Choi and Rebekah Kim, son of Missionaries Isaac and Rebecca Choi. Most of the second generation kids out there probably don't know me too well, since I haven't been around Chicago much for the last 8 or 9 years.

After leaving UBF about the same time Ruth did, I searched for a spiritual home, which I found in my junior year in college. It was a Korean American Presbyterian Church in Boston, which we affectionately called, "Brookline", after the town it was in (incidentally, the town is the birthplace of JFK). It was
there that I found a community of believers that genuinely loved and cared for each other and showed the grace of God to one another, despite whatever warts or failings they had. They were mostly Korean, but there were also a good number of other Asians, as well as Caucasians and African Americans. It was here that I experienced incredible worship, received the deep love and grace of God (so much so that I fairly regularly wept silently in service), and where I began to learn how to pray as well as how to serve, to teach, and to lead. It was also there that I made a good number of very close friends and fellow travelers on the road of faith, friends I cherish deeply to this day. And it was there I met my wife, Laura. Laura and I have been married for about two and a half years now, and our love for one another just continues to grow deeper every day. We know that God has brought us together since we are such a good match for one another and he has blessed us so much through each other.

About 4 years
ago, I heard God's call to go to seminary, and I enrolled at Princeton Seminary. I finished the M.Div. program this past year and am in the middle of my Th.M. degree here. I'm not quite sure what God had in mind in terms of specific career when he had me go to seminary. It may be to be a professor and teach in a college or seminary. Or it may be for full time ministry, or perhaps as a lay or part-time minister. I am currently leaning towards being a professor, so I'm in the midst of doing my Ph.D. applications. But I am still in the process of discerning God's will and we will see how he continues to lead.

I can't say that I'm as irenic as Ruth is about my feelings toward UBF. The passage of time and God's love and gracious healing has made me a lot less bitter and angry towards UBF than I used to be. But I would be lying if I said that I don't have a significant amount of anger left in me. I still remember vividly the high pressure environment and being arranged to be engaged to a girl in Korea
when I was 12. When I refused, I remember not only being severely yelled at, but also how this girl and her parents were lied to by the leadership, that I had said no because I didn't like her, when in fact I refused because of the principle involved. I also remember how, after I had left UBF, a missionary from Chicago, someone I barely knew, called me up and yelled at me for 30 minutes. And whenever I returned to Chicago for breaks, I remember being called by others a bad influence on the second generation kids, and being labeled as proud, arrogant, evil, and even demon-possessed.

So I hope you understand why I think it will probably take many years for me to be completely healed of my anger towards UBF. But at the same time, I do acknowledge the good points of UBF. I am grateful that I had an understanding of the Bible and of the Christian faith from an early age. I am thankful that somehow I had developed a personal faith in the midst of all the craziness, anger, and frustration, even though that
faith would only blossom after I had left. And I am thankful for the dedication and love (though it is occasionally misdirected) of my parents and many members of UBF, including the USA Reform movement members, like Missionary Mark Hong, some of whom I've got a chance to get to know over the years.

I'm not saying all second generation kids should strive to leave UBF. If you choose to stay, get to know those of like minds and work, in your own way, to bring about change and reform in UBF. I myself pray that God might be changing UBF in the months and years to come. But also know that leaving is definitely an option. If you can't stand it, go ahead and leave like I and others have, and find a church that will better nurture your faith. You will receive a good amount of persecution from your family and from others, but in the end, I'd say it's worth the struggle to leave if you feel you are being stifled and if UBF is holding you back in your walk with God. As Ruth said, your parents will eventually come
to some understanding or acceptance, even if it takes a long time. Of course, this only applies to those who have the means to leave, basically those who are of college age or older. For those who are younger, I encourage you in the meanwhile to hold on, get to know Christian friends, read good Christian books, and even visit other churches or parachurch organizations, until you can get to the point where you can make your own decisions about your future.

I guess I'll close with this: A pastor I highly respect gave this sermon illustration. He and his wife have a daughter, and he said it's great that they teach her how to sing cute little songs or do a little dance. When guests come over, she comes out and does her little number, to everyone's delight. But he said that he would never want her to dance or to sing with the idea that she needs to earn his love that way, saying, "Daddy, is this good enough?" or "Will you love me now?" And in the same way, Christians can have a tendency to try to please
God or earn his favor by doing their good works, by being "good enough" for God.

I think this kind of mentality is especially fostered in UBF, where applause and approval comes when you have more one-to-one's or bring more sheep to the worship service. During my whole time in UBF, I never heard that God's love for us is truly gracious and unconditional, like a father's love for his children (at least a good father's love), that I don't have to measure up or bring sheep or do whatever to earn his love, because he loved us even when we were still sinners. It was only later, outside of UBF, that the gospel truly became "good news" for me. So I pass this central truth of the good news of Jesus Christ on to my fellow second generation brothers and sisters: that the grace of God is deep, very deep. He gave everything, even his very self for us, before we had done anything for him. He loves us wherever we are in our lives, no matter how far or near we are, and nothing we can do or not do can make him love us
any more or less.

Our service to God, our attempts to glorify him, shouldn't come out of a desire to avoid rebuke or punishment from our parents, from Missionary Samuel Lee, or anyone else. Nor should they come as the result of high pressure or a desire to "look good" before others. Instead, our desire to serve and honor God should come naturally out of the amazement and gratitude of one who's experienced the great grace and love of God. It is my hope and prayer that those who are reading this, both inside and outside UBF, will grasp more and more God's grace and love until that grace and love pours out of them like overflowing streams, to forgive, to touch, and to bless all those around them. I know that I myself can only overcome my bitterness and forgive as I more fully know that amazing love and grace.

in Christ,
Isaac Choi

ichoi/at/mail.com (my junk/spam email address; email me there to get my real email address.)

Author: Sarah Rhee
Subject: Re: Reflection of a "Second-Gen"

Ruth, you have said so beautifully what's on my heart. I affirm what you wrote, especially about 2ndgeners being open to try out other churches. I know that while I was in UBF, my visits to my friends' churches showed me what following Jesus was like for other people and gave me hope. Also, being able to attend Edgewater Baptist Church from 1st through 6th grade also exposed me to non-UBF people who loved the Lord. There are so many churches all over the country where God is worshipped in spirit and in truth. We have so much to learn from the whole body of Christ. We all need each other to be one body.

Also, we all have direct access to God the Father through Jesus. I know that if we come before the Father with open hearts and ask the Holy Spirit to fill us, the Father will draw near to us as we draw near to him. There is no greater joy for me than to be able to be with my Father in worship, to talk with him, to listen to him, to love him, to let him love me.

Again, I thank Ruth for
her gentle words of wisdom, and pray that the Lord will touch the hearts of all UBF members, 2nd Generation, 1st generation, and even 3rd generation, with the life-changing power of his mercy and truth. Peace be with you all!

Your sister in the kingdom,
Sarah Jane

Author: Sarah Rhee
Subject: Re: More

Isaac, thanks for sharing your perspective. I've read your brother Daniel's previous posts, including the one that got deleted, and I think your parents should thank God for such insightful, gracious children who are also very good writers :)! Not only that, it is obvious you and Danny both love the Lord very much and are also full of mercy towards those who have wounded you in the past. I thank both of you, and Ruth, for your examples, as I often struggle very much in choosing forgiveness. God bless you and Laura. I'll continue to be in touch.

Sarah Jane

Author: Cali Raisin
Subject: I heard it through the grapevine

I liked your testimony. But i have one question. Around the time you decided to leave UBF, I heard a rumor that you left because of or that sometime afterwards you were living with a guy in sin. So is it true? Because if it is, then that puts a whole different light on your testimony.

Author: Anon
Subject: Re: I heard it through the grapevine

If you seek to discredit people, I assure you we are all indeed sinners. We all have things that can be pointed out.

The issue is not just sin and sinners, but willful, persistent, unrepentant sin that has affected hundreds of people. I will let Ruth speak for herself, but I doubt she is in that class if she has done anything at all. Also, if she has, her church and the people she is spiritually responsible to should handle it.

The same should be true for UBF , but unfortunately the leadership will not address nor talk about its sins before its leading members.

I think reformers do not want to discredit Sam but address serious sin that affects many.

Does Ruth fall into this category? No. If she becomes the leader of a huge ministry and hurts hundreds of people with her sin and then refuses to repent, then you can make a web site about her, OK?

Author: watcher
Subject: Re: I heard it through the grapevine

Um, that rumor must be a rumor to you only because I've never heard such a rumor about Ruth. Are you sure it wasn't someone else that you heard that about?

Author: Cali Raisin
Subject: Re: I heard it through the grapevine

No, the real issue is Ruth's testimony, I could care less what you think about UBF. And I don't appreciate you using your response to peddle your opinions about UBF. Now, i did hear such a rumor. And if Ruth says it's not true, then i would totally believe her. I'm not trying to expose her, or catch her up in a lie. But, if the rumor is true, that sheds a whole new light on her testimony. She addresses the second geners, and she says all these nice things to encourage, and how she's not bitter, etc. I really did like her testimony. The problem is that i got this stupid rumor in the back of my head, and i want it out of there if it isnt true. In her testimony she made it sound like she left UBF for religious reasons. And she goes on to talk about her struggles, etc. I dont want her testimony to be based on a lie, especially since it could do a whole lot of good for other second geners. So you see Mr. Anonymous, i was looking for a simple answer from Ruth, not one from you and definitely not the one you gave.
Next time, try not to read too much into things, OK? Not everything is an evil conspiracy and not every post is your soapbox.

Author: 2G
Subject: Re: I heard it through the grapevine

I hope Ruth will address your question personally. But I know she didn't leave UBF because of mere religious differences. She left because of her experience of abuse as a teen when Samuel Lee showered her with his "special" attention. I hope she can go into more detail on what his special attention consisted of. She didn't in her original testimony, maybe because she didn't want it to be a bitter-sounding litany of the things that Samuel Lee did to her and others. I think it's good that people ask such questions of these testimony givers because it gives them the opportunity to clear up any doubts in the back of a lot of peoples' minds. Someone else posed such questions to Jimmy Rhee, and he was good enough to answer them, clearing up any doubts I had in my mind about him.

Author: Dear Raisin
Subject: Re: I heard it through the grapevine

Gee, I must think strange or something.... because I would only post something like that on a BB if I wanted to discredit someone. If I just wanted to know the facts, I would have emailed her personally.

Sorry to impune your motives if they were sincere. The problems is the anti-reformers are using whatever means possible to discredit anyone who says anything against Sam. I hear it with my own ears and it makes me sad.

I still think it is improper for you to post such a thing in Ruth's case.

Author: That other Anonymous
Subject: The migratory patterns of rumors

Cali, how did a rumor about Ruth travel all the way out to California? I'm thinking this has been just one big misunderstanding because such a rumor about Ruth doesn't even exist in Chicago, not even among her family.

Author: Ruth Chung
Subject: Re: I heard it through the grapevine

Dear Cali Raisin,
Your question betrays just how tightly information is controlled in UBF. Maybe there is something to this whole thing about indoctrination. Normally, I would not dignify such a remark, but because I know you and many others have been lied to, I will reply to your question. I have never "lived in sin" with any guy, nor did I leave UBF so I could have boyfriends. The powers that be in UBF have a knack for cooking up many nasty rumors to cast people who leave UBF in the most negative light possible, as people "running away" from God. It's like communist China! I've also heard rumors about Daniel Choi that made it sound like he had abandoned his faith altogether. It's amazing, isn't it, how a spirit of lies and cover-ups has infiltrated a place that is supposed to encourage truth-seeking?

So why did I leave UBF? Although my parents and Samuel Lee see it completely differently, I believe I was manipulated emotionally and spiritually so that I became like a puppet - I became a
shell of a person. I disagreed with the way Samuel Lee controlled and dictated everything in my life, from what I ate and wore, how I spent my time, who I should marry (like Isaac Choi, I was "engaged" at age 12), to what I should study in college and what career I should have. Knowing also about his grip of control on others and the pain that had been inflicted on them, including my violin teacher, caused me to question: Is this really what Christianity was meant to be? By my sophomore year of college, I had seriously contemplated suicide several times. But somehow, God protected me, and I stubbornly held onto the belief that God did not mean for me to have a life full of such pain. So yes, I left UBF for the selfish reason of wanting to stay alive and to get to a place where I didn't hate life so much. But mainly, I left UBF because it was not a good fit for my spirit. While I admire my parents and some of the people who have committed their lives to helping people through a 1:1 approach, I could
never truly accept or embrace that calling. Even while growing up in UBF and being a faithful and obedient, even exemplary, member, I remember feeling uttlerly and completely out of place. Often, I felt like I was going insane. By the end of high school, I knew that this was the not the place God meant for me to be.

I didn't want to go into the details of why I left UBF in my first post, because I have let go of the past and have come to a point in my life where I don't need or want to dwell on the harm that was committed against me in childhood. God has brought me to a place today where I can look back, and see everything that happened to me as a way for me to serve and bring glory to God. I also don't necessarily believe that UBF is a cult. In many ways, UBF is just like many other fundamentalist evangelical churches, but there are certain aspects of it that do not fit into the American cultural landscape (e.g. it's authoritarian leadership).

Again, I want to emphasize the spiritual
freedom that God has given us. God wants people to embrace him willingly and wholeheartedly, to use their free will to choose life and choose God. This is why he did not make Adam and Eve automatons. But in UBF, I fear that many of the 2nd gens have obeyed and served without the wholehearted willingness God would want them to have. Perhaps it is out of fear, a need for parents' approval and support, or a real belief that absolute obedience to the will of a man is obedience to God. Where is God's grace in all of this? You have a choice - you are not trapped. If you choose to stay in UBF, choose it freely. Do not choose it out of fear or because you think you have no choice.

I hope this clarifies my earlier post.

1 John 4:18, 19 "There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts our fear; for fear has to do with punishment, and whoever fears has not reached perfection in love. We love because he first loved us."

Your sister in Christ,
Ruth Chung

Author: Cali Raisin
Subject: Re: I heard it through the grapevine

No, you dont think strange, you just see what you want to see. Why don't you read my post over again. Actually, maybe I should just explain it to you. First off, I'm not a sam supporter. I was only asking Ruth if the rumor was true or not because i wanted it cleared up. She posted her testimony on a public board, so why shouldn't I post up my question on the same board (and it's not like I knew her email)? I wanted her to clear it up for everyone who ever heard the rumor. I was in no way trying to discredit her. Is it wrong to seek the truth?

Author: Cali Raisin
Subject: Play nice Ruth

What happened to the nice Ruth from the first testimony? Be careful, I don't want you to sink back into the bitterness you fought so hard to overcome. That was not the goal of my inquiry at all. All I wanted was the simple "no" that part of me believed you would give. I didn't mean to pry into your life, and I didn't mean for you to give us all details. I only asked because I liked your testimony, and the only thing stopping me from taking it to heart was the stupid rumor in the back of my head. I wasn't trying to discredit you or embarrass you in any way, and if I gave you that impression, then I am truly sorry.

Author: Anon
Subject: Re: Play nice Ruth

The question deserved more than a simple 'no.' Thank you, Ruth.

Author: Ruth Chung
Subject: Re: Play nice Ruth

Believe it or not, I actually have very little bitterness in me. By God's grace, I could experience his deep love for me, which has more than made up for the twisted version of love that I experienced in childhood. I was simply trying to show that the motives for my departure were so compellingly clear. But for argument's sake, let's say after I left UBF, I stopped believing in God and stopped attending church. Does that invalidate my need to leave UBF (for mental health reasons)? Or look at it the other way. Let's say I didn't go through what I went through, but I simply didn't embrace UBF's mission and its doctrines and wanted to attend a church that was a better fit for me. Does that invalidate my reasons for leaving?

Putting my own story aside, I am disturbed by your need to validate people's reasons for leaving UBF. A church should not be a prison, where people must have a "valid" reason for staying or leaving, or where people are made into "exiles". It should not be a self-serving
institution that insists on a kind of orthodoxy and exclusivity that demonizes people who voluntarily leave FOR WHATEVER REASON, for the purpose of trying to VALIDATE ITSELF. If people leave the church, it is THEIR CHOICE to do so. If they choose to stay, that is also THEIR CHOICE. It is amazing to me how much energy is wasted on judging people, when only God has that right.

I wish you and other second gens could experience that spiritual freedom, and know the joy of finding a spiritual home in your church.

Author: Cali Raisin
Subject: Re: Play nice Ruth

Where are you getting all of this? Are you sure you read my post? I wasn't trying to validate or invalidate your reason for leaving. I just wanted the truth. Is it wrong to be a truth seeker? I liked your testimony but because of the rumor, I thought that maybe your testimony was based on a lie. I wanted you to tell me that it wasn't true and make it all better, not to get angry or annoyed or defensive or whatever you want to call it. Isn't it clear that I'm on your side? I think that you're more bitter against UBF then you would like to admit. And if you say your not, you must be in denial because look at the posts you've written so far.

Author: That other Anonymous
Subject: That word, bitterness

I think we're all agreed that bitterness is a bad thing. It eats away at the spirit. It causes sleepless nights (and that really sucks). I speak from experience as a current Chicago UBF member. But those who've managed to avoid SL's special attention and twisted love should try to understand those who have been embittered by it. I don't think we can completely be free of our bitterness. Christ's healing goes a long way toward erasing bitterness, but it can easily resurface because our memories are still with us. Those who have been or are bitter toward SL and UBF are those who have a reason to be bitter. If Samuel Lee doesn't think you're worth his time and you like it that way, then you're understandably not going to be bitter. Please understand that it takes great strength not to be bitter, but noone's perfectly strong. If someone sounds bitter, call them on it, but at the same time, try to understand that they have a reason to be bitter. There, I'm done. I'll shut up, stay out of it, etc.

Author: Anon
Subject: I wouldnt' waste another keystroke, Ruth

Just ask X.

Author: Anonymous2
Subject: Re: I wouldnt' waste another keystroke, Ruth

I was thinking the exact same thing: The way Cali Raisin talks, he or she sure sounds a lot like our old friend 2ndGe nPen...

Author: Jimmy Rhee
Subject: Rumors and Its responses: Surrounding Ruth's Testimony

I started writing this to respond to Cali, but I decided to make it a new open topic to warn against all the possible UBF tactics, and more importantly to wake up the 2nd gen's as well as any inside of UBF.

The issue is not whether the rumor is correct or not, but the wrongs of UBF leadership (I will continuously use "leadership", for not only SL but also those in its position are all together responsible, and will not escape from the responsibility) which Ruth's testimony brings up.

If you are a true truth-seeker, you have to get the answer to such questions from the UBF leadership.

Her private life is not the issue here. "You prove first that you're sinless first, otherwise all you say are lies": that's the tactic UBF leadership uses. I will not bring up SL's private life though I have gotten much from my personal counseling and 1:1 with his closest ones. For it has nothing to do with the current issue. Such things are different from Abortion and other issues Ruth's testimony
reveals. What we deal with is the principle of UBF leadership that has been hurting many, and most of all God, for they do all in God's holy name!

So if it were I, I would not respond to such inquisitive questions even if it is "No". It's not to hide anything, but to stand on principle. It will also help many to stand up and write without fearing such rumors. Off course, I did respond to the rumors related to my credibility. The issue was not my private life, but all related to the ministry principle.

I am talking about the priciple involved here. I don't know anything about Ruth's private life. I just don't need its answer to make my own right judgement as Jesus wanted (John 7:24). Because of this, I become very suspicious of your motive.

Finally, more critical issue in this matter is UBF's sin of gossipping, even using very private confidential pastoral information (such as life testimony) just to have the control over people's lives. It creates shame and fear. There are two big
different churches, one shame based, the other grace based. I don't know a shmae based church can be called a church whose head is our Lord Jesus who is full of grace and truth.

Dear 2ndgens and my dear ones,I cry with tears for you for UBF is a model of a shame based church. Though Ruth politely defered to say UBF is a cult, I am afraid that UBF has already become one.

So I just copy one of my article (message # 2553) related to such gossipping: be true truth-seeker and, tape record all the gossipping or slanderous statements even if you are not reform-minded now!

Here is my comment I posted on reformubf. It may give you and other reform-minded in UBF some idea of what you can do:
-----------------------------------
Related to my credibility issue, I have heard the leadership of UBF publically making slanderous remarks of those who may be the key eyewitnesses of the facts. I encourage any reform_minded in UBF to tape record such statements. It is criminal to falsely accuse
others, or to use private information he gets through the confidential life testimonies. We have to stop such evil practice immediately. If you are just silent, your silence allows him to continue it. If he doen't want any accountibility, he has to know there are secular rulers-criminal justice system- the Lord has ordained, and he has to stand before them, even on this earth.

I wish some of UBF members read this and warn him. I haven't tipped any private and crucial info I had got during my counseling and Bible study with from his own closest ones.

Abortion issue is an exception. I am still very sorry for it. Even so, it is not private, but public sin that should be dealt publicly if he doesn't repent.
-----------------------------------
P.S. I don't know if you, Cali, are truly on Ruth's side as you said. If so, and I hope so, my writing sounds too harsh to you, but understand that I am not against you, but what is implied in your question.

Author: Jimmy Rhee
Subject: Re: I heard it through the grapevine

I posted my response as another open topic (Rumors and Its responses: Surrounding Ruth's Testimony) because I believe your inquisitive question violates an important principle we have to keep in this reform forum, and it together with many reponses, side-tracks the real issues Ruth wants to bring up.

Author: Jimmy Rhee
Subject: Re: I heard it through the grapevine

Dear Ruth,

Don't respond to any other than the issues you have brought up. It is for you to stand on principle, not to hide anything. I posted an article of this principle (Rumors and Its responses: Surrounding Ruth's Testimony). Those who are in shame based churchs don't understand it.

I am with you and our Lord Jesus is with you and for you, broken-hearted and angry with all the malicious rumors.

I am proud of you.

[ Next Thread | Previous Thread | Next Message | Previous Message ]

Replies:

Reflection of a "Second-Gen" & the Cali Raisin controversy (continued) -- multiple, 12:01:24 01/09/02 Wed