Yet another "judging is bad" thread -- RSQUBF Discussion Boards 2001 highlights

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Date Posted: 12:23:58 01/09/02 Wed
Author: multiple
Subject: Yet another "judging is bad" thread
In reply to: rsqarchive 's message, "January 2001" on 10:32:30 01/09/02 Wed

Author: hi
Subject: ubf...

Chicago ubf is totally different from other ubf's around the world.
Samuel lee acts like he is the God of ubf. He tells a missionary to this or a shepard to do that. And it must be done or it is blasphemy against God. I've heard Samuel Lee actually say this. That without doing what he says it is going against God also. Who is he to say what is for God and what isnt? What power has God given him? Yes he is the founder and leader of UBF. But just like anyone else in UBF he is just a person. A servant of God that is equal in sin with everyone else on this world. Who is he to spend all the offering money? He spends it on his leisure giving it out to certain second gens that he favors. Or he spends it on his children and grandchildren for their personal expenses. UBF has tons of money in the bank that only Samuel Lee has access to. Why not spend this money for the good of UBF? Buy a new and bigger church. Or something. Yet it stays lingering in the bank for Samuel Lee to use it at his own expense. Who is
Samuel Lee to match people up with who they marry? I know that some second gens are kind of glad that they get arranged marriages. Yet I am positive that others are unsure yet they do it by the pressure of Samuel Lee. An example of an abuse of power was a old member of UBF. It is not my place to state his name so i will not, but he was member of UBF for a long time until it was found that he was having a relationship with one of the older shepards of UBF. He was kicked out and she was sent to Korea. Im sure most of you know who i am speaking of. Well for a long time this guy studied the bible continuously and even tried to come back to UBF. Trying to repent. But what did Samuel Lee do? he said no. UBF is not his church. It is God's church. What power does he have to say no to a person who is trying to learn more about God and repent of his past sins? Samuel Lee has never done anything bad to me personally. But i have seen for many years what he has done to many of my close and dear friends. Samuel Lee is
abusing the power that he has as the founder of UBF. I really feel sorry for some of the missionaries and shepards of UBF. I have met many of them. Many of them shallow and living in a world where their minds will depend on what they have learned in UBF. Learning to gossip and judge on appearances. Yet there are so many missionaries and shepards who are kind and gentle and work hard for the glory of God. Yet they continously take the crap that Samuel Lee gives them. I for one is one of the people in UBF who has never taken any crap from UBF or Samuel Lee. Even though i continue to attend UBF, I believe that Samuel Lee really needs to change his ways, or something must be done about him.
Yet i still believe that posting all these messages or trying to reform UBF will not do much. I think that for many of us, we should just continue to worship God. Just follow our hearts and continue to glorify our Lord. We need not worry about Samuel Lee. For if his actions are truely wrong, God will deal with him
accordingly. I hope that all those who have left UBF, especially the 2nd gens whom i know personally, may live good lives. Also that those missionaries and shepards who continue to go to UBF that they may not be led astray but strictly worship God.

Author: Sarah Rhee
Subject: Re: ubf...

You say that if Samuel Lee's actions are truly wrong, God will deal with him, and that those in UBF should just continue worshipping God and not worry about Samuel Lee. Please remember that God gave us his Word and the Holy Spirit so that we can discern when there is unholy activity going on. Based on the Bible, Samuel Lee has definitely without question done evil in God's eyes. If those in UBF just stay mum and allow the evil to continue, they become participants as a result of passive non-action. Paul did not wait for God to judge Peter when Peter sinned. Paul rebuked Peter. Jesus did not sit back while the Pharisees burdened God's people with their legalistic standards. Jesus rebuked them and called them the children of the Devil and a brood of vipers. Therefore, if as Christians, we are to follow biblical standards, I think that we need to NOT sit back and watch Samuel Lee continue destroying lives. We need to tell him to repent and to be accountable to the body of believers. If he does not,
then I would personally hand him over to Satan, as Paul said, and hope that the dire consequences of his sin would force him back to God. Now I realize this is probably not possible in UBF because the UBF leadership as a whole would have to hand him over to Satan, and since Samuel Lee's in charge of UBF, this will probably not happen. Only if enough people stand up against the continuing sin and oppression by Samuel Lee will he maybe possibly concede leadership and step down.

I don't say all this because I want to make Samuel Lee miserable, but because if he does not submit himself to God and own up to the destruction he has created, he will suffer far more in the end. Yes, we could just stand by and wait for God to judge, and yes, God will judge, but if we do that Samuel Lee may die before he repents, and then it will be too late. So if we really care about Samuel Lee's soul, we'd continue praying for him and badgering him to repent. At the rate he's going, he's paving a road that will lead
straight to a not-so-happy ending

Author: UBF person
Subject: Re: ubf...

At some point people must stand up and say something. I think we in UBF are way beyond that point. When people are being physically and psychologically scared as some people are through this ministry, we must stand up and say something is wrong. Something is really wrong with UBF and it is too big to ignore.

UBF has many wonderful aspects to it, but certainly we must examine ourselves objectively with a critical mind so that we may improve. We must admit we need drastic improvement, particularly in accountability of leadership, in allowing the free flow of information, and in allowing free, open and non-threatening ways of sharing criticism.

I think if we grow in these areas, God will use UBF greatly.

Author: to sarah rhee
Subject: Re: ubf...

Yes i agree with what you say. i've read your messages throughout the message board. and you indeed have a good heart. and what you say is true. but the way that people throughout the message criticize samuel lee. yes he must change. yes something must be done. but who are we to do something about it? we are no less or more of sinner than he is. yes i look down at samuel lee for many of the things he has done. but the thing is. right there. i am sinning. i have no power or place to look down on anyone for what they have done. because i myself have done bad things in equal as samuel lee has done. so have you. and so has everyone else in this world. what power do i have or does anyone else have to do anything about it? the way people talk on this message board show too much hostility. it seems to me that sitting here writing tons of messages criticizing people isnt doing much. i think that this website has done a great deal to make alot of people realize that things must change. But i think that this website
also has concentrated a little too much on aiming the problems mainly at samuel lee. samuel lee is the leader. but without the people that follow. he is nothing. the people must change in order for him to change. he is old. he will not realize things on his own. it must be shown to him.

Author: UBF
Subject: Re: ubf...

Sam is the focus of the board because he is the focus of UBF. Nothing significant happens without him. His sin affects all very much whether people admit it or not. His strong personal influence and the personal human loyalty to him is standing in the way of God's work.

Also, you do not have to look down to him or up to him. You neither have to exalt him or put him down. You do not have to think about how wonderful or terrible he is. You must only put him in the proper perspective of Christ and make him a man and a sinner equal to you. That is the perspective that has been lost. That is the point, we are all sinners who must be accountable to each other and to Christ. He must submit himself to the body of Christ along with everyone else.

You do not have to put him lower than you but as the same sinner.

The Bible is clear. Even leaders need to be made accountable. Even leaders need to be confronted when they sin. It is not that he should be treated especially good or
especially bad, but receive the same rebukes as all when he sins. This does not mean he is not respected. "God disciplines those whom he loves and he punishes everyone he accepts as a son." It is God's love to help him.

I learned in UBF that real love is not letting people do whatever they want. Rather, real love is challenging people to repent and come to Christ. We all need to be told to repent, including M. Samuel Lee.

I think we in UBF must bear the blame of indulging him. We treated him higher than he deserves. We gave the devotion and absolute obedience and authority in our lives that only Christ deserves. No we must tell him no more. Not because we hate, but because we love him.

Many people are bitter and probably many hate him. Many are certainly frustrated because he is like dealing with a brick wall. All these human feelings including his own are understandable. I believe we should stand up to him as individuals. He needs the people closest to him to help him.
However he may never change as long as he isolates himself from any challenge to repentance. In that case, all we can do is to leave.

The real danger is in the reproduction of his leadership style in the directors closest to him. They appear to be clones of his. I can envisage the events in Chicago repeating themselves years down the road in other chapters if UBF is not fundamentally changed.

Author: watcher
Subject: Re: ubf...

Really? You've caused the death of the unborn like Samuel Lee? You've caused families to be split like Samuel Lee? You have absolute power over people and abused that power like Samuel Lee? My point is that though we are all sinners and are commanded not to judge, certain sins and crimes (yes, crimes) need to be punished. We can punish without condemning; we do it with our children all the time. Samuel Lee needs to feel the consequences of his sins, or like a spoiled child, he'll never grow up. It sounds funny since he's old, but he's got a lot of growing up to do. One of the consequences of his sins is that people are speaking up on this and other web sites and exposing him. As you wisely observed, another consequence of his sins must be that his followers have to change and speak up. Many of his followers in Korea and some in the USA have changed and openly spoken up. As for people in Chicago UBF speaking up, if you think the time is right, why don't you start speaking up, and maybe I'll follow you.
:)
If Samuel Lee doesn't repent and grow up and make real restitution to the people he's hurt, then the final consequence of his sins should be his removal from leadership. All of this should be done, of course, without condemnation. I don't think we can speak for God and say what anyone's final destination should be.

Author: Anonymous2
Subject: What boards like this do...

Even if this board and others like it will have little real impact on UBF itself, it at least warns those thinking about joining UBF or committing to it more deeply. By showing that many people have complaints against UBF and Samuel Lee (even within the organization itself), people can make those kinds of decisions with their eyes more open.

But I think boards like this have already made a big impact on UBF in fueling the fires of reform, especially in Korea. Many in Korea UBF have no idea of what Chicago UBF is like, and when they hear these stories and testimonies coming from UBF members and ex-members, they are shocked.

Author: Sarah Rhee
Subject: Re: ubf...

I acknowledge that there has been some hostility shown on this site and not everything posted has been entirely all that edifying. However, I believe that we as believers have a responisbility to submit ourselves to the head of the church, namely Jesus himself, and that to throw our hands up in the air saying "Who are we to do something about it?" when we CAN do something, is spiritual cowardice and spiritual fatalism. Here is what we CAN do:

Speak the truth in love--the whole truth.

Shine the light of Jesus in the dark places where sin wants to hide.

Hold our leaders accountable to following the commands of Jesus.

Pray for repentance to flow from our hearts and the hearts of our leaders.

Thank God for giving us the freedom to choose him, and for calling us to him to be his children.

If you are in UBF, don't submit to pressures from leaders who would burden God's people with harsh standards of outward burnt offerings (e.g., # of 1:1s, # of students you bring to
Sunday Service, conferences, etc., amount of $ you give to UBF). If you are feeling burdened by these things, that's because you ARE burdened. This is contrary to Jesus, whose yoke is easy and whose burden is light.

Ask God what he thinks about Samuel Lee and UBF and all these websites. Get it from God himself. If you listen, I'm sure he'll speak in his gentle, still small voice as you pray or search the Scriptures.

Continue to seek after Jesus with all your heart. Hang out with him. Tell him what's going on in your heart and life, even if it's not very pretty.

Examine God's word and ask the Holy Spirit to teach you what he wants to teach you instead of just following the Bible Study outline.

Is there anything unbiblical about doing what I listed above? I don't think so. If there is, let me know. If everyone in UBF did these things, we probably won't need this website too much longer.

May God bless your heart's desire to know the Father and to participate in his
kingdom here and now. May God continue to heal my own wounded heart where there is still bitterness and hatred towards Samuel Lee or anyone else in UBF as I choose repentance and forgiveness daily.

Your sister in the kingdom,
sarahpattie72@yahoo.com

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2ndGenPen's parting shot -- multiple, 15:34:25 01/09/02 Wed