To judge or not to judge? -- RSQUBF Discussion Boards 2001 highlights

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Date Posted: 16:27:47 01/09/02 Wed
Author: multiple
Subject: To judge or not to judge?
In reply to: rsqarchive 's message, "January 2001" on 10:32:30 01/09/02 Wed

Author: Tony
Subject: To judge or not to judge?

One objection which I have heard raised several times on this board is the issue of whether or not we as Christians should judge UBF. To this line of thinking UBF is a ministry of God, founded and led by the Holy Spirit, and therefore not to judged by imperfect men. Samuel Lee is God's appointed servant, and if he has done something wrong God will judge him in his time.

But is this a true Biblical principle? Would the Apostles Paul or John support this claim? From their writings I would say not. Unfortunately the Bible can be a little confusing on this issue if we take a superficial glance, but if we use discernment the scripture is clear.

1 Cor 2:15 (KJV) But he that is spiritual judgeth all things...

The word judgement can have two distinct meanings in the scriptures. The first type is sitting in judgement of someone or condemming them, this is the kind we are commanded not to do (Mat 7:1). The other type of judgement is called discernment, which we are repeatedly commanded to use.
1Thes 5:1 states "Test everything. Hold on to the good." and Phil 1:9 "This is my prayer for you: I pray that your love will keep on growing more and more, together with true knowledge and perfect judgment..." Here Paul is not only hoping that we do judge (or discern), but so much so that our judgement may become perfect!

The Bible commands us to judge theology (1Tim 4:16), to judge if men speak by the Spirit (1John 4:1), to judge illegal behaivior (1Cor 5:3), and even to judge what our pastors teach! (Acts 17:11)

To those of you in UBF who read this message, I hope you will see that it is proper and right to judge spiritual matters, and we must intervene when something ungodly is happening. This is our job, and we have been given the Holy Spirit to do this (John 16:13). Please read the article on the Acts 17:11 web page at http://www.acts17-11.com/discern.html and read it prayerfully. As it says "This fear of using proper judgment may come from a simple lack of understanding of God's will,
or from superstition (Col 2:18-19), or even from a lack of the Holy Spirit (Jude 17-19). Scripture is useful for correcting such conditions (2 Tim 3:16-17)."

Thank you for listening,

1 Cor 11:31 (NIV) "But if we judged ourselves, we would not come under judgment."

Author: freedom
Subject: Re: To judge or not to judge?

I know that we do not have to condemn UBF, but we can condemn certain practices such as assaulting people or manipulating them. The same goes for the people.

I think we in UBF have become so deeply absorbed in identifying people and their actions with the organization and even with God that we have lost perspective. For example, being a critical of a leader. If I say a leader's particular action is wrong, for example pushing them to get an eyelid operation, then the interpretation is that I am fully against the leader. Since I am fully against the leader, I am also against UBF. Since I am against UBF, I am against World Mission and God. So, I must be the devil and must go. There is an all or nothing philosophy in UBF regarding leaders. I do not judge them, however I may judge and reject their particular actions. But that does not mean I reject them or Mission or Christ even though many members may interpret that.

We have lost much of our perspective. Let's not so closely identify
leaders and organizations so closely with God that they become blurred.

Author: Mediator
Subject: Re: To judge or not to judge?

I believe condemning or judging is wrong. Christ says it is. Is correcting or rebuking the same thing? The answer is obviously, no. But from what I've heard from this message board is a lot of judging, condemning, and even some mocking. This from both sides - UBFer's and reform UBFer's. It is written that "God opposes the proud, but gives grace to the humble". Each one of us should watch ourselves. No one side is right. This has become more of a war between Devils vs. Devils. I believe the honorable ones in this situation are those who have kept their mouths shut, their heads bowed and hands folded - whether they've left or stayed in UBF. The ones who continue to do Christ's work humbly and teach the bible to the dying souls of this world will be the ones who are in the end rewarded. This is my opinion, but I believe God and His word back me up on this.

Author: ChicagoX
Subject: Shut your mouth, bow your head and fold your hands

Luke 10:30-32

In reply Jesus said: "A man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho, when he fell into the hands of robbers. They stripped him of his clothes, beat him and went away, leaving him half dead. A priest happened to be going down the same road, and when he saw the man, he passed by on the other side. So too, a Levite, when he came to the place and saw him, passed by on the other side.

Author: Anonymous2
Subject: Re: To judge or not to judge?

"No one side is right."

Mediator, one thing we do know is that you are not right. The fact is, either one side is right, or the other one is. Despite whatever failings that people on both sides have, either there has been many abuses by the leadership of UBF or there hasn't been. Truth is truth, and even if we may never know the whole story, God knows who is on the "right" side.

I agree with you in the sense that people should be more careful of the way they say things, and of the general tone of the discussion. At the same time, the result of your position is inaction in the face of possible injustice, which I do not think is very biblical idea.

Would you say that in World War II, Americans should have remained silent and just prayed against the Nazis and their atrocities, saying, "Who are we to judge? We're not perfect either!"? I don't think so.

I think saying that no one is perfect doesn't get us anywhere. It's true that we're all sinners. But at the same time, we have a moral
responsibility to speak out against injustice and sin. Or are you going to say that all the prophets in the Old Testament who railed against the sins of the people of Israel and the corruption of its leaders had to be sinless in order to say anything?

Author: Anon
Subject: Re: To judge or not to judge?

The Bible says, there is "a time to be silent and a time to speak". Ecc 3:8. People have been silent for over 10 years and only more people were hurt and abused. The time to be silent is over. Now is the time to speak.

Author: Sarah Rhee
Subject: Re: To judge or not to judge?

Mediator, I agree with you that "God opposes the proud and gives grace to the humble." It's in the Bible. However, I think there is a difference between being "humble" and being silent in the midst of evil out of fear. Humility can be expressed in ways other than keeping one's head bowed and one's mouth shut. True humility is shown through submission to God's reign in one's life. If that means speaking out against spiritual abuse in the highest ranks of leadership in UBF, then who are we to tell God, "No, I'm going to be humble and keep my mouth shut."? If God leads people to speak, to call those people proud and judgmental would be telling God that he's not God.

Remember the trials at Nuremberg, when the German judges during Nazi regime had to face charges of crimes against humanity? Many of those judges, like many of the German civilians, did not necessarily put Jews and others in concentration camps or commit other atrocities with their own hands. But they kept silent and they turned their
heads from the evil they would have seen if they'd kept their eyes open. There's a difference between silence and humility.

I sympathize with your concern that people are being condemning, judgmental, or mocking on this web site. However, I think that most of the posts have been enlightening and truth revealing. We shouldn't discourage what God is trying to do through this web site because of a few stray posts here and there.

This is a forum for all to speak freely, an avenue not provided in most arenas of life in or out of UBF.

Author: Watcher
Subject: Similarities to Nazis?...well a little...

Sarah's post makes me think. Let me make it perfectly clear. Samuel Lee is not an Adolf Hitler and UBF is not a Nazi regime. However....there are certain similarities.

First of all, there is the strong, fanatical devotion to a human leader. Part of Nazi doctrine was that the Fuehrer was always right and must be obeyed absolutely. This was called the "Fuehrer Prinzip" or the "Leader Principle." The Fuehrer had to be obeyed absolutely. At Nuremberg and the other Nazi trials, this was not considered a defense saying you were just obeying orders. Each person has a God given conscience and are responsible to know God and evil. (Ro.1)

Second, the suppression of information. Information is tightly controlled in UBF beyond belief. For almost a year directors hid the Reform movement and plenty of people are only now finding out about it. They are getting mad about this if nothing else.

Third, the fear. The Third Reich was held together by fear. That is what we see here in UBF. That
is why people are afraid to speak out. An atmosphere of fear pervades all and oppresses those who would freely speak out.

Fourth, the atmosphere of self-delusion and unreality. At the end of the war, the the leadership was in total unreality regarding the state of things. Even to the very end they believed they were totally right and must die for their principles.

Fifth, the self destructive nature. It is truly amazing how many people end up being ship-wrecked in UBF. Over the years how many have felt hurt and wounded and left? It was not outside persecution, but from within. We see this pattern even now to the end. The present leadership would rather do anything including sacrifice all that has been built up and all the people under it in order to remain in its world of delusions.

Anyway, the similarities intrigued me. UBF is not a Third Reich, however it like the leaders in that regime suffer many of the delusional and destructive qualities that sinners exhibit when they
refuse to repent.

Perhaps we should all watch "The Bunker"?

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Impact of this site -- multiple, 16:32:21 01/09/02 Wed