Yet another "last post" from Daniel Hong -- RSQUBF Discussion Boards 2001 highlights

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Date Posted: 16:57:35 01/09/02 Wed
Author: multiple
Subject: Yet another "last post" from Daniel Hong
In reply to: rsqarchive 's message, "January 2001" on 10:32:30 01/09/02 Wed

Author: poster
Subject: Daniel Hong on Reform From UBFNET

Over the years, I have observed some people who left UBF after
vigorously defending UBF against Satan's attacks. Probably, they were
burnt-out, but one of the primary reasons, in my opinion, is that
in the process of defending UBF, they studied Satan's methods,
and slanders, and then, they were slowly infected by them. Then, they
thought like Satan, acted like Satan, became the servant of
Satan, and are actively engaging in Satan's work in the name of God.
They have lost the spiritual insight and do not really know whom they
are serving, even though even the teenagers can see that it is Satan.
In any organization of our size, there will be defectors, who have
valid criticisms of UBF, and we need to listen to them. They left
UBF in good conscience, and found peace in other Christian
organizations. In their life, UBF was like a temporary shelter before
they have found a true home. So, I have no problem with this. In
fact, you may conduct a poll
of students who have received Ph.D and
ask how he/she regards his/her mentor. Probably, about half will say
that he/she was abused by their professor. Any professor who has
produced Ph.D is aware of such accusation. Anyone in any leadership
position might probably have had such an experience. Therefore,
claims by defectors in any organization that 'they were abused' are
nothing new. I am not really concerned about these people.

Here,I am talking about a small group of defectors whose sole aim is
to discredit 'everything' in UBF. They magnify their stories, and
spread out, and tell the world that there is absolutely 'nothing' good
in UBF. Is there really nothing good in UBF? If so, how such an
organization could hold such a large group of people, who confess
Jesus as their Lord? Some of the people in the so called reform group
are intensely filled with hatred and bitterness. They are like
Salieri in the movie 'Amadeus.' But they are
really
underestaimating the faith of Dr. Samuel Lee and his deep personal
love relationship with our Lord Jesus. God protected him in the past,
and he is doing so at present, and will do so in the future. In the
sight of God, what was important was not the numbers, but was the
stump, the David's branch. Ishmael certainly looked much more
impressive than Isaac, but it was Isaac through whom God's work
continued. It was not the majority, but the minority, the one and
half tribe among twelve tribes, that were the chosen ones. They
kept the lamp of God burning, and God's work continued.

[2] Satan's mission is to introduce disorder, chaos and confusion in
the hearts of God's people and God's community. Satan's sole aim is
to destroy God's people, and disturb the progression of God's kingdom.
If your sole aim is to detroy the reputation of fine people, and
thus hinder the work of God, you yourself may consider that you
have nothing to
do with Satan, but you need to be aware that what you
are doing is not God's work, but Satan's work, no matter how good
your motivation is. Our Lord Jesus did not hesitate to call Peter,
'Satan,' when Peter did not have in mind 'the things of God,' but '
'the things of men.'

[3] In the past few days, I have been surfing through this
'answer' site, but I was shocked at the level of discourse. How can
people attack their spiritual mentor such mercilessly? Even in the
world, there is so called loyalty. People who rose to fame, and power
through the help of Nixon do know the grace they received through
him, even though some of Nixon's conducts were ethically challenged.
Didn't we all study Dr. Samuel Lee's lecture notes, and learn about
the good shepherd Jesus through him? Isn't UBF really the outgrowth
of two people's faith, Dr. Samuel Lee and M. Sarah Barry? I learned
faith through Dr. Samuel Lee, and indeed divided the Red Sea by faith

living in a foreign land. I would say proudly that I am what I am
because of the faith he taught me and his prayer. I hoped this site
would be different, but then I realized that Satan has invaded this
site, and has turned it into another battle ground. But this will be
probably Satan's Waterloo. Why? Because truth will ultimately
prevail. Hundred years from now, Dr. Samuel Lee will shine like a
star in the sky, and the people filled with hatred will disappear
without trace.

[4] Finally, whatever Satan touches, it is infected, and this site is
no exception. I concluded that visiting this site can be very harmful
to the health of my spiritual life, and thus I made a decision not to
visit this site for an extended period. Instead of feeding my soul
with slanders, I should feed it with the word of God. Perhaps, in
the distant future, I may visit again, but not now. Now, I leave my
parting thoughts.

*******************************************************************

[1] The Current Situation and Evaluation.

So-Called-Reformed movement (SCRM) might have had started with good
intentions. But the manner they have conducted thus far has been very
disappointing. In their words and actions, it is hard for me to see
the heart and mind of Christ. It is not evident to see the joy of our
Lord, repenting spirit, and constructive attitude. People may quote
the Bible passages but I do not see Christ-his humility, love and
faith. The UBF I have known is a place where we submit to one another
out of reverence for Christ. The world is yearning to see the image
of Jesus, the Servant and Good Shepherd. But it is increasingly hard
to see the genuine attitude of Christ. In what sense, it is so?

A. Ends do not justify means. For good ends, the means should be good
as well. By demonizing Dr. Samuel Lee and the fruit of his 40 years'
ministry
as nothing but abusive and authoritative work, they are
destroying themselves. They insist biblical authority. The biblical
method is truthful. Truth is objective. Truth is always spoken in
love and clarity. For example, I & II Samuel are God's words. In
these two books, Samuel and David's life are well-described.
Samuel's great spiritual influence and his failures in raising up his
sons are mentioned without any apology. David's great shepherd life
and his heart for God and his people are mentioned without failing to
disclose David's critical failures: his adultery with Bethsheba,
murder of Uriah and his continuous family problems with his sons
such as Absalom. How can we justify the practices of demonizing Dr.
Samuel Lee and/or anyone who happens to disagree with their ideas and
methods. See how many people have been demonized and their integrity
has been damaged. Cyber space has no editors. Everyone is saying
anything and everything.
Probably, no more than 20-30 people are doing
these each and every day. There is no credibility check. These are
uploaded with no identifies revealed. They keep sending E-mails to
people anonymous. Why should there be such a secret?

B. Where is the sense of history? What did they really learn through
their many years of ministry in UBF? They have studied the God of
Abraham, of Isaac and of Jacob and of Joseph. Abraham is not Joseph.
God did not expect Abraham to be Joseph. Dr. Samuel Lee is a pioneer.
He is not a nicely, well-behaved successful pastor. He is a man of
passion. He is a man of action. He is a man of faith. In evaluating
his life and ministry, we have to understand the contexts of the
ministry and the fruits. His weaknesses or perhaps his excessive
actions need to be honestly and carefully evaluated in light of the
work of God. UBF worldwide is gradually evolving in ways
much more than what SCRF insist. Most of UBF
ministries do have
strong leadership by directors/pastors and leadership councils. But
the ways they conduct the ministries are basically ethical. Leaders
exercise authority in humility. They are competent to carry out
their responsibilities. The spiritual order is based on love and they
display servant heart of Christ. If any chapter is not practicing the
servant heart of Christ and shepherd life of our Lord, it surely
fails.

C. Where are God's glory and his work? At this point, with continuous
destructive attacks on Dr. Samuel Lee (while Dr. Samuel Lee has
remained silent) and leaderships in general, precious treasures in
UBF have been broken: authority and respect toward spiritual
leadership, love relationship,and diminished passion toward Christ
and God's work. People keep focusing on sins of people. Where is the
glory of God? Where is the work of God?

[2] What Should Be Done In This Situation?

A. Apply in our own
lives. Truth appeals to us because it has
relevance to us. Therefore, vital and vibrant truth has to be
applied in our own inner and personal lives first. In the time of
spiritual crisis, we really need to come to God in repentance and
faith and grow in personal faith. We must repent of our own sins.
Leaders should repent more than the followers. The gospel message
is, "The time has come. The kingdom of God is near. Repent and believe the
good news!"(Mk. 1:15)

B. Apply in our own ministries. The real reformation may not be
applied in a distant place. We should look for God's work within our
reach. We need to see the work of God and build the kingdom of God in
our home, in our fellowships and in our own ministries.

C. Seek the glory of God and the work of God. Be constructive. Focus
on the work of God and the glory of God. Do not focus merely on
sins of people. Do not let the slanders, rumors and allegations be
your daily
bread. Don't feed your soul by those words of people.
Rather, examine what you take on breakfast, lunch and dinner. Focus
on God. See his glory. Like Isaiah, look up to God who is at the
throne.

D. Look forward to the future, change to honor God and pursue the
common good. Reflect on the past to assess the present and work
toward the future. Do what can be done in the future. Do not just
talk about problems. Think about solutions. Ponder what can be
done. Change what you can change and at the same time do not lose
your calling. Running a ministry in democratic manner seems good
in principle. But certain things are not simply democratic.
Jesus did not come here by first taking polls of people. Jesus did
not decide to die on the cross after consulting with his disciples.
Spiritual leadership must be exercised with godliness, faith and
ethical conducts. However, spiritual leaders in any size of unit
must have legitimate
authority, competence and humility to serve the
Lord.

E. "Above all, love each other deeply, because love covers over a
multitude of sins."(1 Peter 4:8). This does not mean that a Christian
community never deals with serious sin problems of its members or
leaders. Further, exposing every known sins of others and keep talking
about them and dwelling on them are not the life-giving ways of
Christ. We have been saved not because our Lord kept talking about
our sins. We have been saved because Christ forgave our sins and
dealt the matters. Serious sins need to be confronted, confessed and
forgiven. Reconciliation must be made. But the primary action of
Christians is to love each other deeply. Love your leaders. Express
your willingness to bear their burdens. Honor them if they deserve.
Pray for them if they need encouragement. Confront them in respect
and strength if their faults are clear. But follow biblical mandates.
First approach in
person. Second, use proper channels. Third, if all
fails, you find different place of worship. Move on.

F. Finally, keep yourself in Christ. Nurture the mind of Christ.
Grow in the Lord. "But even if you should suffer for what is right,
you are blessed. "Do not fear what they fear; do not be frightened."
But in your hearts set apart Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to
give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the
hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect,
keeping a clear conscience, so that those who speak maliciously
against your good behavior in Christ may be ashamed of their
slander."(1 Pet 3:14-16).

Author: poster
Subject: UBF, leadership and the Old Testament

There is much to comment on Daniel's posting about Reform. I will leave that to other critics. However, one point I want to point out is the unique UBF theology for leadership. It is entirely based on Old Testament principles. Look what Daniel says when talking about Reformers:

"They are like Salieri in the movie 'Amadeus.' But they are really
underestaimating the faith of Dr. Samuel Lee and his deep personal
love relationship with our Lord Jesus. God protected him in the past,
and he is doing so at present, and will do so in the future. In the
sight of God, what was important was not the numbers, but was the
stump, the David's branch. Ishmael certainly looked much more
impressive than Isaac, but it was Isaac through whom God's work
continued. It was not the majority, but the minority, the one and
half tribe among twelve tribes, that were the chosen ones. They
kept the lamp of God burning, and God's work continued. "

Essentially, UBF people believe that
a leader is uniquely chosen by God to carry on God's blessings. The leadership of Moses is pointed out as the example. In other words UBF people believe that blessing and God's work is passed down through people by people and if you break that relationship you are leaving God's blessing and God's history.

There was some basis for this in the OT, but is this what the New Testament teaches? I don't think so. In Christ all the barriers to blessing have been removed. Blessings do not come from people or organizations but directly through Christ. Galatians 3 says: "He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit." The blessings of Christ do not come from or through people anymore, but directly from Christ to the individual believer. You do not need "God's servant's" approval to gain God's blessings, rather they come directly to you by faith in Christ.

Almost all UBF theology
about leadership comes from the OT. It is is they are trying to reestablish the Levitical priesthood. UBF seems to be a peculiarly patriarchical system where personal love relationships to human beings are above individual believers' relationships to God. So, leaders are often referred to as "fathers" and people are urged to observe spiritual order in order to establish harmony. It is interesting that OT patriarchy is compatible with Confucianism...but it is not Christ's teachings. Jesus said:

"But you are not to be called `Rabbi,' for you have only one Master and you are all brothers. And do not call anyone on earth `father,' for you have one Father, and he is in heaven. Nor are you to be called `teacher,' for you have one Teacher, the Christ."

We have wonderful new lives of faith and blessing directly from Christ, let's not look to humans for it. We have a wonderful Heavenly Father whom we can approach directly. Let's move into the New Testament teachings of Christ with regards to
leadership and leave the patriarchy and absolutism where it belongs....in the 9th century BC.

Author: Oy
Subject: Satan, Satan, Satan

Someone's got Satan on the brain. I count Satan used 15 times in this little essay.

Author: ChicagoX
Subject: Re: Daniel Hong on Reform From UBFNET

Here I am replying to every post and battling the honorable man again. Sorry. First, I think all that "think, act, become Satan" stuff might just be his way of apologizing for and retreating from posting vicious rumors about helpless women and calling respectable people to heap abuse on them. He shows me that intense hatred is present on both sides and is perhaps more intense on his side. At least our outrage is mostly directed at one man (and I know many of us are prayerfully working on forgiving and praying for that one man). But Dr. Hong seems to be spraying to all fields these days.

Some Points:

Are there ever "valid" criticisms of UBF? In Chicago, no criticism of God's servants seems to be valid.

On abuse being common, as Nick Timlin wrote, it's the degree of abuse that counts. Everyone accepts some degree of abuse. But enough's enough in Chicago UBF.

I think most reform-minded people are agreed that there are good elements of UBF, and everyone agrees that there are many
genuine Christians in UBF. The Reform Declarations acknowledge that UBF started well, but that something went terribly wrong theology-wise and in the heart of the UBF leader. They all say that not all the 40 years of UBF history were bad. Things have gone wrong, but it's nothing that can't be fixed.

As for stumps and branches, Dr. Hong's attitude seems to be really catching on in Chicago. It's weird hearing SL and people speaking as if Chicago UBF is a minority in the world-wide UBF. We've heard about making America 10x greater than Korea. It feels more and more like we're going to cut ourselves off and isolate ourselves from an expanding Reform and become like North Korea, and it scares me.

The current "disorder, chaos and confusion" among God's people are tragic. But this tragedy could have been averted 25 years ago and again, 12 years ago, and the issues remain largely the same. If the issues had been addressed then, this would not be happening. All SL has to do is answer the 15 questions,
even most of the questions, and Korea might be satisfied. But as in 1976 and 1989, the answer is evasion and silence. We may be cursed to repeat this cycle in the next decade to an even worse degree because the same ISSUES are not being addressed. The evasion and the silence are Satan's true work. Where is your sense of history?

On point [3], I don't think the choice of Nixon is particularly wise. Where is God in this paragraph? I see "Dr. Samuel Lee" and "M. Sarah Barry." Where is God? And aren't you what you are by the grace of God as Paul said in 1Co15? "Hundred years from now, Dr. Samuel Lee will shine like a star in the sky..." doesn't deserve comment.

On [1] The Current Situation and Evaluation, evidently Dr. Hong hasn't read the Reform declarations on this web site because there are many constructive changes suggested for UBF. It's not just about criticism and "demonizing" SL, though most of the reform issues do center on him because he has made himself the center of UBF.

As the
for rest of it, I'll just summarize by saying that Dr. Hong lives in an idealized UBF, one to which I'd love to belong, wherein I can give my heart and obedience only to Christ and leaders humbly get out of the way because they are perfectly Christ-like. As Nick Timlin so aptly pointed out, Dr. Hong is a 1000 miles out of harm's way. I've heard that some of the other chapters, even Toledo until recently, are great places to grow. I've been to some of them, and it's true. They're so different and so much better. But it's funny that they see Chicago UBF as some sort of paradise. They seem eager to send their best and most promising to Chicago for training under "great servants of God." They don't even know what they're sending their sheep into. Some come and survive. Some even thrive. Others are horrified and "run away."

"Dr. Samuel Lee is a pioneer. He is not a nicely, well-behaved successful pastor. He is a man of passion. He is a man of action. He is a man of faith. In evaluating his life and
ministry, we have to understand the contexts of the ministry and the fruits. His weaknesses or perhaps his excessive actions need to be honestly and carefully evaluated in light of the work of God." Again, the word "sin" cannot be applied to SL. It's "weaknesses" and "excessive actions" which can be excused by "the fact that he's evangelized the whole world." Don't you know how sick that makes me and so many others? This kind of blindness only perpetuates the problems in UBF. Please open your eyes and open the Bible. He is nothing but a sinful man like you and me. "For ALL have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." (Ro 3:23)

Author: Brother A
Subject: Re: Daniel Hong on Reform From UBFNET

ChicagoX. I agree totally with you. I think Daniel Hong's letters clearly show the extent to which anti-reformers live in a dream world. Their enemies are in their minds. I think they are boxing shadows, but eventually will one day see that their real enemy is themselves.

Thank you for your good and thoughtful work ChicagoX. May the Lord bless you and preserve your faith and keep you from all harm. May the Lord bless the Reform movement until UBF is made an instrument of his righteousness.

Author: Marcos
Subject: Re: UBF, leadership and the Old Testament

In this last UBF defense, everything Dr. Hong is saying readily applies to UBF. Thank you for making those wonderful connections, I thought you would never see it our way. For years Sammy has been bad mouthing people in the worst of ways. In 2001 every defemation of character, every attack he expounded on gullible but sincere people is coming back to haunt him. What goes around comes around. Someone like this man will not be shining in the sky, on the contrary in less than a few years he will be in the gutter of obscurity. Samuel Lee is a false god, a false prophet, look at how his followers are worshipping him. I have nothing but pity for these poor and misguided souls, may God have mercy upon us all.

Author: Pea Brain Nick
Subject: Re: Daniel Hong on Reform From UBFNET

I really thank God for this message board. I thank God for Dr. Hong speaking freely. I never met him, but hope to someday meet Dr. Hong after he is changed in Jesus.

Unlike Chicago X, I cannot refute this man's ideas point by point. I have thought and prayed for about two hours on this, and I came up with an empirical approach to his viewpoint. I will use inductive logic, but nothing complicated.

I made a list of 10 Christian messengers that I like. They are D. James Kennedy, Hal Lindsay, John McArthur, Erwin Lutzer, Joe Stowell, Don Kohl, Pat Robertson, Chuck Colson, Arthur Brazier, and the 300 lb. super strongman John Jacobs of The Power Team. I have listened to each of them numerous times. I cannot recall even one time that any of them ever compared themselves or anyone else to a hero of faith in the Bible.

Dr. Hong compares Sam and Sarah to prominent persons of faith in the Bible. (Once in a while Grace A. Lee is treated as such, and I like her. Dr. hong did not mention
her.) This comparison is an institutionalized practice in Chicago UBF. Especially at the Monday meeting staff members should compare Sam to the prominent Bible hero of faith.

I could think of one other person who does this, and it is Sung Myung Moon. can you think of anyone else? I am not saying Sam says he's the Christ, but I am saying he sure gets in the way.

The time this issue comes out is announcement time. He compares himself to the hero, and chooses several others to serve as the sinner or bad example from the passage. The announcements go on for 30 minutes or so on Friday & Monday, and at least 20 minutes on Sundays. So those who are not getting the Sam is the hero message from testimony writing get it during the Sunday Worship service. Thus they are set up to see Sam as the living Bible character from the first visit.

I am not being sarcastic about this phenomena. I used to think this is so Biblical. Now I can see that this is very dangerous. I will write more
on Thursday as to why this is so dangerous. It has to do with eventually being compared to Jesus.

Chicago X, I admire your endurance. If you would like to exchange encouragement, please feel free to email. There is much to be encouraged about. God loves you and has great things in store for you.

Author: Speaker
Subject: Moses

You made some really good connections here, and I think this is the type of thinking we need to do if we want to help UBF. We could sit here and demonize everything UBF and Samuel Lee does but that would be like asking the infamous Church-Lady question "Could it be ...... Satan?!" Or we can really look at the issues and understand why it is that Samuel Lee thinks his way is the right way.

First of all many UBF members are living under a lot of confucianistic principles that are not associated with the new testament principles of church life. We all have grown up in our own particular society and culture, and no culture is perfect. For 20 centuries now Christianity has been crossing cultural borders, and people have always adapted certain aspects of their culture into Christianity.

Maybe this is why the Old Testament is emphasized and liked so well in UBF. At the time the OT figures lived in a patriarchical society in which the man was the head of the home etc. which is very close to
confucianism. But when we look at the new testament we see that many of the OT concepts are actually done away with entirely.

In the NT Jesus emphasized a sort of individualism that constituted the indidual beleiver's connection with God and Jesus, while still maintaining a connection with the Body. But in UBF there is no individualism which is really encouraged, but in culture they are still in line with the OT.

A good example to use is the Temple worship of OT times. Here the temple service was divided into three main divisions so that gentiles, Jewish women and Jewish men all were separated. It is interesting to note that the first Korean Christians used to divide the church down the middle with a long sheet to separate the men from the women- a confucianistic principle. But when we look at the NT in Acts we see that the men and women worshiped and prayed together- and even with gentiles!

The main work of Christ was our salvation- which means he set us free. Freedom from the power
of death and freedom from slavery to sin. Freedom, equality, and grace were three revolutionary principles taught in the NT, and yet they seem to be missing in UBF.

Right now UBF is living in a type of legalism which the pharisees and galations were living under. They are living by OT principles and have referred to Samuel Lee as Moses in this generation. They do not understand the principles of grace of the freedoms of the NT Christian to follow God individually, but still rely on Moses to pass on the Law.

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let's pray -- multiple, 16:58:36 01/09/02 Wed