Dear Reverend Mother Barry... & Lorne Green goes hunting -- RSQUBF Discussion Boards 2001 highlights

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Date Posted: 17:16:25 01/09/02 Wed
Author: multiple
Subject: Dear Reverend Mother Barry... & Lorne Green goes hunting
In reply to: rsqarchive 's message, "January 2001" on 10:32:30 01/09/02 Wed

Author: ChicagoX
Subject: Dear Reverend Mother Barry...

Dear Reverend Mother Barry,

I remember you sort of cringed when I first called you that after Samuel Lee first dubbed you "Reverend Mother Barry." It wasn't your idea. I know that Sunday night's birthday bash at World Buffet wasn't your idea either. But, thank you for the opportunity to eat at that fine establishment again. While I was stuffing my face, I realized that we had done this last year at the same restaurant. Last year, it was your 70th birthday, a birthday of some significance to both Koreans and Americans. But this time it was your 71st birthday. I couldn't help but wonder why we were doing this again on the same scale. I couldn't help but wonder if we would have done this if this whole reform business were not going on. As some Roman Emperors noted, the people need to be distracted while the "barbarians" encroach on our borders. Somehow, I know that such an elaborate feast on your 71st birthday was not your idea.

At last year's birthday bash, I was a willing and happy participant.
But I had a whole different perspective at this year's dinner. I realized the extent to which the glorification of human beings has run out of control in Chicago UBF. I found the meal-time entertainment, especially the drama, even more shameless than last year in glorifying you, elevating you to the point of holy sainthood. I found this level of adulation inconsistent with your own view of your life. You have been and are still able to say in all earnestness that you are a sinner. In your testimonies, you don't trumpet how you worked, but how God worked in and through others. How I respect you for that! In that regard, you are very different from Samuel Lee who cannot even bring himself to say four simple words, "I am a sinner." And I know that it was not your idea or those students' idea to elevate you to holy sainthood. We know whose idea and direction it was. It still doesn't make it right, though. And it still indicates that Chicago UBF has a serious problem when hero worship reaches the level it reached
Sunday night. I really hope we won't be doing this every year.

A former Bible student of yours and still an admirer,

ChicagoX

Author: Anon
Subject: Re: Dear Reverend Mother Barry...

Do you think M. Sarah Barry and other Chicago leaders read this site? I wonder why M. Sarah is so silent and compliant when it comes to M. Samuel? I believe she is very faithful to Christ and very faithful to M. Samuel. But, I wonder just how much she can do or take? M. Sarah, if you are out there, please talk to us and post us your thoughts? Tell us why it looks like you follow one person so unconditionally? I want to know what you really think without the interposition of other people's thoughts.

Author: listener
Subject: Re: Dear Reverend Mother Barry...

I used to think Reverend Mother Barry was such a SAINT I actually saw her as an advocate for women missionaries and shepherdesses. I know she gave up her hopes of being married in order to follow UBF Ministry. However, I don't understand why she was so silent and passive when S. Lee ordered those women to have abortions. Did she agree with him? Couldn't she somehow prevent it. Also, why did she try to cover up Lt. Sarah Kim's adulterous affair w/ Damon. I understand Hazel suffered much, and cried many tears to GOD. How could she ignore all the suffering Christians in UBF
and pretend that nothing is going on?

Author: ChicagoY?
Subject: Re: Dear Reverend Mother Barry...

Yes, she is a saint. In fact all who put their faith in Christ are saints. She is a sinner just as we are and would probably be the first to admit it. Who know the reasons why she plays along with this game for so long? Perhaps she believes God is using her to keep a semblance of sanity in UBF? Perhaps she regards herself as Samuel Lee's shepherd and does not want to desert him? I don't know how she thinks.

But she doesn't have to be perfect. That is the problem with UBF, we are encouraged to put leaders on such a high standing that when we see their inconsistencies, weaknesses, and sins then it is really hard.

No one deserves the amount of honor and authority that we here in UBF alot to leaders. It just does not work out good in the end.

Author: Listener
Subject: Re: Dear Reverend Mother Barry...

Okay. But how can you live with that? I mean just to sit there and see all this unnecessary abuse of Believers, and do absolutely nothing. Not even a hint, not even a wink, not even a nod.
And to think God is watching!

Author: Ichabod
Subject: Re: Rev. Mother Barry.--Who?..

Come on, have mercy on her. Treat her with the forgiveness and understanding that we have not received from UBF leaders. Let's not perpetuate such thinking, since much of it is the cause of the problems that exist now.

Besides that, how about us? How many times did we stand by and not do anything when a leader threw a good christian out of the fellowship? How many times did we shut our ears to the insults, condemnations, and ridicule that came from the pulpit and say, "Well, that is God's servant speaking." Even still, how much do we fail to stand up for the oppressed, the fatherless, the widow, and the people who have no voices.

Don't get me wrong, I am all for reform, I just don't want the things we are fighting for be denied to those who would deny them to us. It is all about REFORM, isn't it?

M. Sarah did give her life to serve Christ and students with the Gospel, but something went haywire along the way somewhere, and it can happen to any of us. Let's don't call people names.

Author: david
Subject: Re: Rev. Mother Barry.--Who?..

I still don't understand how she can justify her silence and acquiesence through the long years of involvement with Dr. Lee! It's too much to believe that she is oblivious to his character and outrageous conduct. Abortion is a grave matter, after all! She is certainly culpable and bears the weight of very grievous sins on her shoulders if Amy Young's testimony is accurate about the matter of Little Sarah's adultery. Apparently she punched this gentleman "Damon" (Demon?) in the mouth 2 X's. This is not the usual conduct of a meek and humble 70 year old woman. It would be nice to give her the benefit of the doubt, but is there any reason to believe that she deserves it? Is she just a picture of the prototypical follower of Dr. Samuel Lee--cowed, manipulated, intimidated, deceived--or is she something more subtle and sinister? Pride of position?

Author: Lorne Green
Subject: Re: Dear Reverend Mother Barry...

(Archiver's note: This UBF spy hunter was really working the Alan Wolff angle.)

Yes, Chicago X. We all know that you stuffed your face. It was a step up from the ALPO you usually get. But we all know that Wolfies like to eat. Did you have some (A & W) rootbeer too.

Author: ChicagoX
Subject: Re: Dear Reverend Mother Barry... (To Lorne Green)

The insults I can take, but don't even try to guess because you could put the wrong person under suspicion. I made that mistake once.

Author: Lorne Green
Subject: Unmask and unplug yourself

Sorry Chicago X, didn't mean to insult you. Just want to be creative in the identity game. My buddy, 2nd Gen X, gave up but I don't want to. I want you to come out from the bushes. You don't want me or anyone else to guess. You are right about revealing someone who is innocent. That is bad. But, you have to realize that through all your ranting and raving you have revealed a lot about yourself. The list of possibilities is short. And getting shorter. It is only a matter of time before someone or yourself will reveal your identity.

Author: Comrade Lenin
Subject: Re: Unmask and unplug yourself

Lorne, you also reveal alot about yourself and UBF. You show what kind of atmosFEAR it is saturated with. Why must people talk secretly and hide? Why do you want to have a search and destroy mission? Others have commented how CUBF is similar to a communist organization in its secrecy, control of information, and constantly checking for loyalty. Don't you think there is some truth to this?

If you want to find out who he is, why not just ask the leadership to make a way for people to publically say what they feel or think without retribution? That would be good, wouldn't it? Or do you prefer the present atmosfear and secrecy?

Perhaps you enjoy your witch hunt? You can win some points and be a hero? Perhaps a new Thomas de Torquemada? There's a fine idea, a UBF Inquisition...you could be Director of Investigation for Heresy and Repentance?

Incidently, do you think any CUBF members are capable of violence? You don't they would harm Chicago X if they found out who he was, would
they?

Also, are you a Christian?

Author: ChicagoX
Subject: Re: Unmask and unplug yourself

You're assuming I don't want to be unmasked. Unmask me or don't. Either way, you'll be doing me a favor. I would suggest that thinking and commenting about the issues presented here might be a better use of your time.

Author: Comrade Stalin
Subject: Re: Unmask and unplug yourself

ChicagoX, you know what to do if you get caught:

1.) Say it is all lies and false slander.

2.) Say it is Satan's attack.

3.) Offer him a "gift."

4.) Tell all CUBF people they can no longer come to the center.

5.) Talk about the "good" things you have done.

6.) Pretend as if nothing happened.

7.) Ask Dr. Daniel Hong to come to your defence.

8.) All of the above.

Author: comrade
Subject: Re: Unmask and unplug yourself

9.) Call him a "crazy dog."

Author: Mahatma
Subject: CUBF violence

Violence at UIC in the 80's and early 90's got CUBF into too much trouble. They've learned that violence by UBF in America is not tolerated to the degree it used to be in Korea. They won't hurt ChicagoX. But they might nail a sheet of plywood to his front door like they did to Rebekah Yoon or, more recently, to Joseph and Lucy Park on the night they were going to leave CUBF. All on Samuel Lee's orders, of course.

Author: Ichabod
Subject: Lorne

So, you want to know who the pretender is? Well, this Sunday while you are at the center, just look around. It will be the person with the biggest smile, the one who nods the most and shouts AMEN the loudest when the leader and his work is mentioned. It will be the one who uses the most UBF catch phrases and cliche's and nods most vehemently when the barking crazy dogs are criticized. Just look around, there may be lots of pretenders and others who know that there is something seriously wrong. Perhaps you may see one in the mirror if you look close enough.....

Author: Lorne Green
Subject: Re: Unmask and unplug yourself

(Archiver's note: Lorne was just trying "to get through to ChicagoX." Lorne swears he's really a nice guy.)

Actually, my alias and web personality is not like me at all. I have to use these tactics in order to get through to ChicagoX. I hope X will confront these issues in person with Dr. Lee, leaders, even the whole congregation. People keep saying that there is no open communication in UBF, therefore one cannot speak out. Well, if a person believes in their cause enough - nothing will hold them back. Anything is possible in God, right?
X, sorry I've harrassed you like this. I want you to come to a resolution in your heart. I do love you, for I have prayed sincerely with you before. I will not reveal you. I am waiting on you.

Author: Ichabod
Subject: Lorne

If there is an atmosphere of openness in discussion in CUBF, then why did Dr. Samuel refuse to talk to Reformers when they visited and instead told them to separate from UBF? Why has he refused to discuss with Reformers the ideas for Reform or questions about finances? Why did he tell Isaac Kim to not invite Reform directors to the upcoming staff meeting?

Do you really think it is that open? Think about what would happen to you if you raised an issue that might make Dr. Lee uncomfortable to talk about? I mean an issue that you did not accept his pat answer to, but wanted to get to the real truth? Why don't you try it?

Author: ChicagoX
Subject: Re: Unmask and unplug yourself

The resolution I reached in my heart long ago (and also a promise I made to someone) was to remain in Chicago UBF. If someone as lowly and unimportant as I brought the issues of SLee's wrongdoings to him or to the leaders, you and I both know it would be a one-sided conversation, and I would be asked to leave if I did not repent and submit to some form of reeducation. Our history tells me this would happen. So, I am resolved to stay, but at the same time my conscience really makes me want to leave, so I wouldn't mind if you revealed who you think I am. It's an inner conflict, and I suffer a lot because of it, but I've resolved to accept this suffering for the time being. I think I've made that clear in the past. Yes, I believe that anything is possible with God, which is why I've been praying like never before for God to intervene through Reform even in Chicago. It'll take more than a person like me reasoning with SLee; it will require God's intervention. I understand why my presence would make loyal
Chicago
UBF members uncomfortable to the point of having to harrass me on line, but try to understand that I'm sort of stuck in the position that I'm in, whether through circumstances or my own weakness. Whatever you decide to do is fine with me. I'm waiting on God.

Author: Subdimsum
Subject: Learning from the master?

Have you been learning from the master of abuse and harrassment "for the sake of edification?" Read what you wrote: "I HAVE to use these tactics to get through to ..." and "sorry I've HARRASSED you like this. I want you to come to a resolution in your heart." Since when did the use of such tactics and harrassment become justified to help another Christian? Or do you proudly think you are Joseph to ChicagoX's Judah? SLee is a master at using such tactics. Have you read Peter Chung's testimony? SLee, without any apparent reason, accused Peter Chung's wife of having adulterous desires. SLee admitted later that he made up this allegation to "help her spiritually." Hello?! More often than not, such "help" embitters all but the most forgiving of people. Do you use such tactics with your own sheep? I hope you don't because you won't have them for long. Don't learn these abusive tactics from the Master. They are rarely, if ever, justified.

Author: Disciple2
Subject: Re: Learning from the master

I'm not surprised to hear that SL created a lying accusation of adulterous feelings to "train" a wife of a missionary. Is this a tactic of Sam's, or is it considered acceptable in Korean ehtics?! In standard western Christianity, we never train people by lying to them. Jesus didn't ever tolerate that tactic of the pharisees. Forgive my questioning, but Koreans in the organization keep us in the dark about everything. That seems to be a Korean trait.

Author: Glad-2-B-Out 2d Gen.
Subject: Re: Unmask and unplug yourself

Lorne:

You sound really young. If you really knew all the stuff that happened to people who tried to "communicate," you might realize how naive you sound. (I'm not saying this to be mean).

My parents were manipulated by SL. Some of my parents friends were downright screwed by SL.... one was kicked out for expressing his views.

But you know what? People ARE communicating - through the reform movement. Those in the movement have tried to communicate with SL as well... but SL refuses to have anything to do with them (probably becuase he knows they've caught him with his pants down). More compellingly, people have been communicating from the 1970s - go to reformubf.org and read about the reform movement then.

While you remain in UBF, information will be filtered through SL.... so no matter how much some people communicate, you might not hear what's really going on.

One more thing: Before careful how you throw around phrases like "anything is possible in God."
Because per your suggestion - maybe even reform is possible.

Author: Forgotten Things
Subject: M. Sarah Barry....a Reformer?!!!

Did you know that M. Sara Barry used to be a Reformer in the Presbyterian Church? Look at this article about segregation in the Presbyterian church:

"In 1958 Mississippi presbyteries asked the PCUS Assembly to abolish its Council on Christian Relations because it opposed segregation. Denominational youth conferences at Montreat, North Carolina, were desegregated in 1960, after which conservatives organized alternative events. Central Mississippi Presbytery even closed its Camp Calvin rather than permit integrated activities. In June 1960, Jackson's First Presbyterian Church offered a large gift to Columbia Seminary which placed theological restrictions upon professors and limited enrollment to whites. The seminary declined the money.14

A few Mississippi Presbyterians worked for change. Sara Barry of Benoit (later a PCUS missionary in Korea) wrote her M.R.E. thesis at New York's Biblical Seminary on "The Role of the PCUS in a Segregated Society."

Hmmm....very interesting. M. Sara(h)
does indeed have a Reformer background. Perhaps she will remember it?

Author: Forgotten Things
Subject: "Sara Barry Days"?

I found some information about M. Sara and how she was supported by her church in Benoit, Mississippi. This article is about court cases involving churches. Note: there is absolutely no insinuation of any illegality or wrong doing in this article. Interesting enough, M. Sara's father was an elder in the church:

"Oddly enough the 1979 case also dealt with a Presbyterian missionary. (11) (The cynic might say that these successful outcomes only apply to Presbyterians.) Sara Barry was a missionary with the Presbyterian Church in Korea and E.H. Winn was her first cousin. Barry's work is sponsored by a number of Presbyterian churches and one of them, Benoit Presbyterian, sponsored several "Sara Barry Days" to raise money for her. Contributions received on those special occasions were channeled by Sara's father, an elder in the Benoit Church, into her personal bank account. The Winns were actually members of another Presbyterian church and had previously made contributions into that church. But
on this occasion, they wanted to donate $10,000 in a more direct way. So instead of running it through their own church, which would have directed part of the funds to the World Council of Churches, a purpose the Winns did not support, the Winns wrote out a check payable to the "Sara Barry Fund." The check was endorsed "For Deposit Sara Barry Fund," and deposited in Barry's personal account. It was then used for Korean mission work.
The Tax Court disallowed the deduction because the Presbyterian Church never received or had use of the $10,000. However, the appellate court reversed and allowed the deduction. They noted that an officer of the church took the funds donated and dealt with them as the church desired. And "that the funds went to the support of the work the church intended is sufficient to establish that the funds were donated for the use of the Benoit Presbyterian Church."

Author: Forgotten Things
Subject: Origins of UBF

Here's an article about the Benoit Presbyterian Church. I thought it was interesting because UBF's origins are from there. Also, it is interesting to see the contrast between it and UBF.

**********
A gathering of faiths
By DAVID WATERS
Scripps Howard News Service

Mom was a Baptist. Dad was a Methodist. She married a Presbyterian.

Who does she go to church with? Family and friends.

"Labels don't mean much around here," said Iday Wilkerson, who's been going to church with assorted Protestants all of her 81 years. "We're all just trying to get to the same place."

Wilkerson belongs to the Benoit Union Church, which last Sunday celebrated its 100th year of unity.

Benoit, Miss., may not be on your map. It ought to be on your mind, especially if you're Protestant. The few hundred residents of that single square mile of Mississippi Delta not only live in the same community. They worship that way. Baptists, Methodists and Presbyterians in Benoit have studied, sung
and prayed together each and every Sunday since 1900.

No one remembers a disagreement, let alone a dispute.

"We all get along. We love each other," Wilkerson said.

When Benoit's Presbyterian Church burned in 1896, members invited other congregations to join them in rebuilding. They accepted. They shared a Savior, so why couldn't they share Sundays, they figured. On first and third Sundays, the Methodist preacher leads the service. On fourth and fifth Sundays, the Baptist preacher brings the message. On second Sundays, it's the Presbyterian's turn.

"You really can't tell a difference in the preaching," said Mildred Blocker, a Baptist and a Union Church member for 46 years. "All the pastors are our pastors. They don't preach doctrine. They just preach the Bible."

Everyone uses the same Bible at the Benoit Union Church. They also use the same hymnal and Sunday school materials.

Each of the three congregations is affiliated with a separate denomination. Each hires and
pays its own pastor. But other bills and decisions are evenly split three ways.

"There's never been any discord," said Ed Boyd, a Methodist who joined the church with his wife, Bobbye, in 1954. "Seems to me that's the way a Christian church should be."

Should be. Often isn't.

When churches and denominations aren't competing among themselves for money or members, they're often fighting within.

Not in Benoit. Unity isn't just practical there. It's biblical. Each member is a different part of the same body.

Sure, the parts operate a bit differently from one Sunday to the next. Sometimes, Iday Wilkerson takes communion standing up at the altar, other times she's sitting down in the pew. Everyone's invited.

When she recites the Lord's Prayer, sometimes she says "debtors," other times it's "those who trespass against us." Same difference.

When there's a baptism, sometimes there's a dunking, other times a sprinkling. Water's water.

"Been there 30 years, still
don't know who's what," said Wilkerson, a Presbyterian. "From one Sunday to the next, we don't know if we're sitting there next to a Baptist, a Methodist or a Presbyterian.

"Like I said, we're all trying to get to the same place."

David Waters may be reached by e-mail at waters@gomemphis.com or by mail at The Commercial Appeal, P.O. Box 334, Memphis, TN 38101.

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UBF leadership -- hopeful, 17:17:54 01/09/02 Wed