Abortions again -- RSQUBF Discussion Boards 2001 highlights

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Date Posted: 10:56:12 01/09/02 Wed
Author: multiple
Subject: Abortions again
In reply to: rsqarchive 's message, "January 2001" on 10:32:30 01/09/02 Wed

Author: Pondering UBF member
Subject: Abortions again

Abortions in UBF - I think this is too important a topic to just overgo it.

There still are many open questions on this matter, for example:

Is there anybody besides Jimmy Rhee who can testify abortions have been ordered or even happened?

What happened to the woman Jimmy Rhee talked about? Was there really an abortion or was she "only" (that's not a small thing!) instructed to do so? Is she still with UBF? Would she testify herself? What's her point of view today?

What about the other women mentioned in the 1989 American UBF reform letter ("Anna Park, Hannah S. Lee, Rebecca Yoon...on and on")?
Did abortions take place? Where are they today? What do they say after more than 11 years?

Why was this topic not mentioned in the 15 Questions Korea UBF has asked S.L. to respond to? I would have placed it first here!
But they put the minor problem of Samuel Lee having discontinued the korean newsletter on top. Strange for me to understand.

If anyone knows some of
the answers, please let us know. Of course names should not be publicized it the persons don't agree with)

Author: Reality Check
Subject: Abortions again

Aside from the hush money and payoffs, the physical violence, the lying I think the abortion issue is the most important thing that needs to be addressed. This alone is a reason for Sam to be removed from office. He did not just "allow" abortion by members, but he pushed them to have them. In my mind, a person with such crooked thinking means he is unfit for leadership no matter how you try to square it. This goes way beyond just "not being perfect" and having "made a few mistakes." Encouraging women to have abortions is a gross violation against the sanctity of life, the Bible, the trust of God's people, and these poor women who were programmed like a computer to "obey God's servant absolutely."

Abortion and the sanctity of life is the defining issues for real American christians everywhere, and here we have a pastor endorsing it in his church. What has been done about this? Has there ever been a public or private acknowledgement before the church? Has Sam undergone discipline or
counseling? Have these women been counseled or apologized to? No, instead these poor women have been thrown to the wolves and Sam fiercely protected!

"`And you took your sons and daughters whom you bore to me and sacrificed them as food to the idols. Was your prostitution not enough? You slaughtered my children and sacrificed them to the idols." Ezekiel 16

"...for they have committed adultery and blood is on their hands. They committed adultery with their idols; they even sacrificed their children, whom they bore to me, as food for them.
They have also done this to me: At that same time they defiled my sanctuary and desecrated my Sabbaths." Ezekiel 23

No friends, this is not just a misunderstanding, or Sam's mistakes that we must overlook...this is the sign of a deeply troubled and disturbed ministry. When things like this occur and have not been dealt with we can only become objects of God's judment.

"The vision concerning Judah and Jerusalem that Isaiah son of Amoz
saw during the reigns of Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz and Hezekiah, kings of Judah. Hear, O heavens! Listen, O earth! For the LORD has spoken: "I reared children and brought them up, but they have rebelled against me. The ox knows his master, the donkey his owner's manger, but Israel does not know, my people do not understand." Ah, sinful nation, a people loaded with guilt, a brood of evildoers, children given to corruption! They have forsaken the LORD; they have spurned the Holy One of Israel and turned their backs on him. Why should you be beaten anymore? Why do you persist in rebellion? Your whole head is injured, your whole heart afflicted. From the sole of your foot to the top of your head there is no soundness-- only wounds and welts and open sores, not cleansed or bandaged or soothed with oil. Your country is desolate, your cities burned with fire; your fields are being stripped by foreigners right before you, laid waste as when overthrown by strangers. The Daughter of Zion is left like a shelter in a
vineyard, like a hut in a field of melons, like a city under siege. Unless the LORD Almighty had left us some survivors, we would have become like Sodom, we would have been like Gomorrah. Hear the word of the LORD, you rulers of Sodom; listen to the law of our God, you people of Gomorrah! "The multitude of your sacrifices-- what are they to me?" says the LORD. "I have more than enough of burnt offerings, of rams and the fat of fattened animals; I have no pleasure in the blood of bulls and lambs and goats. When you come to appear before me, who has asked this of you, this trampling of my courts? Stop bringing meaningless offerings! Your incense is detestable to me. New Moons, Sabbaths and convocations-- I cannot bear your evil assemblies. Your New Moon festivals and your appointed feasts my soul hates. They have become a burden to me; I am weary of bearing them. When you spread out your hands in prayer, I will hide my eyes from you; even if you offer many prayers, I will not listen. Your hands are full of
blood; wash and make yourselves clean. Take your evil deeds out of my sight! Stop doing wrong, learn to do right! Seek justice, encourage the oppressed. Defend the cause of the fatherless, plead the case of the widow. "Come now, let us reason together," says the LORD. "Though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they are red as crimson, they shall be like wool. If you are willing and obedient, you will eat the best from the land; but if you resist and rebel, you will be devoured by the sword." For the mouth of the LORD has spoken. See how the faithful city has become a harlot! She once was full of justice; righteousness used to dwell in her-- but now murderers! Your silver has become dross, your choice wine is diluted with water. Your rulers are rebels, companions of thieves; they all love bribes and chase after gifts. They do not defend the cause of the fatherless; the widow's case does not come before them. Therefore the Lord, the LORD Almighty, the Mighty One of Israel,
declares: "Ah, I will get relief from my foes and avenge myself on my enemies. I will turn my hand against you; I will thoroughly purge away your dross and remove all your impurities. I will restore your judges as in days of old, your counselors as at the beginning. Afterward you will be called the City of Righteousness, the Faithful City." Zion will be redeemed with justice, her penitent ones with righteousness. But rebels and sinners will both be broken, and those who forsake the LORD will perish. "You will be ashamed because of the sacred oaks in which you have delighted; you will be disgraced because of the gardens that you have chosen. You will be like an oak with fading leaves, like a garden without water. The mighty man will become tinder and his work a spark; both will burn together, with no one to quench the fire." (Isaiah 1)

Author: Pondering UBF member
Subject: Re: Abortions again

Dear "Reality Check"!

Our situation now is, that UBF members everywhere are told that everything the reformers (aka "rebels") say is only a pack of lies and slander. Because they cannot check it, they often believe it is only slander - in fact it is unbelievable, that our spiritual leader ordered abortions.
So, you cannot resent them believing everything is slander.

My conclusion is that the most important thing we need now, are facts, crystal clear facts, testimonies of people who have been impelled by Sam Lee or his accomplices to abortions. Tertimonies are very important (e.g. 1 Tim 5: "Do not entertain an accusation against an elder unless it is brought by two or three witnesses."). I think in this stadium we need more witnesses. The facts have to be so clear that nobody can deny or contradict. As you said "I think the abortion issue is the most important thing that needs to be addressed" - and I agree with you fully. But before we go into detail and consequences everybody has
to be shure what exactly happened, what dimension the problem has (singular event? "suggestion" or "order"? as a result of this, did abortions take place? in which (period of) time? etc.), who is witness. Up to now, things are still unclear (see the question in my post above). Please reserve this thread for answers to these questions or evidences. Your pseudo "Reality Check" reflects exactly the phase we are in now. Let's at first check what the real and complete story is!

Don't understand me wrong - the accusation is unimaginably, even in it's lowest dimenson (Lee having only suggested someone to perform an abortion, but it was not put into action), and if it emerges beeing true, it will have far-reaching for Lee and the whole UBF. We have to bring light into this matter. Don't say, it's not an acutal problem, because it happened 11 years ago. This only makes the whole thing worse, because in this 11 years he did not repent and still insist on his spiritual authority.

Author: RC
Subject: Re: Abortions again

I don't know. This is the third of the reform movements with essentially the same issues. I have a hunch the Korean UBF did not address the abortion issue because they might not have known about it. From the UBFNET web site, it looks like people were shocked by it. Yes, I know one other woman besides those mentioned who confessed having had an abortion during our weekly meeting. She also has left UBF. Also, I know of one other director who "hinted" that one of the women should have one.

The problem is difficult. First of all, how do you get these women to testify? They are undoubtedly deeply hurt and wounded people. To bring all this out into the open would be painful beyond belief. Putting myself in their position, it would be very hard to go back to it. I am sure they carry guilt, and that although painful, confronting it would do them and us a world of good. So, I will pray that courageous witnesses may come forward.

Secondly, where would these witnesses go? There is no
council in UBF to address accusations against leaders. There is the media, but I would really hate to see that too. Any assembly of people who got together would immediately be branded by Sam as rebels and liars.

Thirdly, even if these people came forward and testified, would they receive the same treatment as the reformers? Would they be denounced as a pack of liars? So, nothing would happen. Sam will not even listen to the UBF founders, so how will he listen to others?

I think the problem is that we are possibly not even dealing with rational, objective or even spiritual people. This is getting scary when people go this far into delusion and denial.

Anyway, I am open to all suggestions. But most of all, I pray that an honest and Biblical way may be made for people to share such things so that members may have real justice and leaders have real accountability.

Again, right now the first issue is not what was done, but the fact that a way needs to be created to address
alleged abuse by leaders....so far none exists. That is what I am praying for.

May God bless your efforts, Ponderer.

Author: oregano
Subject: Re: Abortions again

As Jimmy Rhee wrote, you can ask Mark Yoon (Wright College UBF, 4065 N. Narragansett Ave, Chicago, IL 60634, Phone: (773) 282-8287). You won't get a straight answer, and you might get an outright lie, but it may be worth a try. I can testify that I once knew a younger and much happier Mark Yoon than the one that exists now. His change does correspond to the events which he is accused of participating in.
The woman Jimmy Rhee refers to is not in UBF anymore (remember how Lee had the door to her house boarded up?). She's still in the Chicago area. It will require much intestinal fortitude for her to testify, but I hope that she will be strengthened to do so. This woman is included in the names that James Kim mentioned in his 1989 letter. I don't remember the other women mentioned. They are certainly not in Chicago UBF anymore.
From my reading, the 15 questions focus on the very recent past. The ordering of abortions is very much an issue with the current reformers, but it just may not fit within the
scope of the 15 questions. That's just what I think. As a side note, I was most shocked to hear about Mark Yang. He was here in Chicago UBF for what seemed like forever. It was never discussed why he was here for so long along with Shep. Daniel Kim. Now I know. I guess that eliminates him from the successor-to-Lee sweepstakes, and I couldn't be happier since he is THE Samuel Lee protege in all of UBF.

Author: A listening friend
Subject: Re: Abortions again

Dear Persistent Enquirer,

I admire you for your persistent enquiry. Please read Joseph Park's testimony in this website. Anna Park left UBF long ago, suffering from the sorrow of abortion. Hannah S. Lee has also left UBF. Of you really want to know, there are ways to find them. I think Joseph Park's testimony is enough.

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Some Thoughts-from www.reformubf.org -- multiple, 10:58:05 01/09/02 Wed