Dr. Samuel Lee's Success -- RSQUBF Discussion Boards 2001 highlights

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Date Posted: 17:24:54 01/09/02 Wed
Author: multiple
Subject: Dr. Samuel Lee's Success
In reply to: rsqarchive 's message, "January 2001" on 10:32:30 01/09/02 Wed

Author: Michael Mark
Subject: Dr. Samuel Lee's Success

How the hell can anyone judge what is right and what is wrong? One bible verse tells us not to judge, while another one tells us to judge what is evil. If you've been reading the posts, you know what i mean. i've been reading every now and then since november, i've read all the testimonies before they were taken down, and almost all of the posts, and i believe in the need to share experiences in order to heal, that's one thing i agree with this site on. what i don't agree with is the fighting, the name calling, the insults that reformers and ubfers both attack each other with on some of these posts. i'm no moral teacher and i'm not here to preach, but like everyone else, i have an opinion too.
why do i think dr. samuel lee is so successful? because even out of his "wicked" ways he has produced Christians such as all of you. would you have been found if it were not for him? Would your desire for Christ and for justice be so strong if it weren't for him? i'm not saying he's a good man, because
nobody is good. even Jesus himself said that - somewhere in the Gospels when somebody asked him "Good teacher, blah blah blah" (sorry, i'm no bible scholar), and Jesus told them not to call him good. i'm saying that there is no way to know ultimately what is right and what is wrong. ultimately? well, yeah, misusing God's money might be wrong, abusing power might be wrong, but in the larger picture, are these wrongs done to find those who are strong enough to say something about, to do something about it? then if that's so, is it wrong?
if i may, i want to share my key verse, from Isaiah 8:12-13..Do not call conspiracy what these people call conspiracy. The Lord Almighty is the one you are to regard as holy, He is the one you are to fear, He is the one you are to dread." I don't have a bible on me so I don't know if that's right either, but that's the jist of it, and for those of you who are curious, I'm writing from school.
I had the same problems as most of you all, I was very confused, I
was lost, but I stayed, and I'm still here. I was never afraid of Dr. Samuel Lee. What kept me was the love that people have for one another here. As much as this is an organization, it's a family. I live 15 miles a way, and my attendance varies from 7 days a week to 1, and I don't even go to the meetings, but it's the comfort I find among the little people, the problems we shared together, the dreams we shared together(encouraging each other to become shepherds), that kept me. Where's God in the picture? Right there, among all of us, I mean, we are in a church, aren't we?
Reformers, no one is stopping you from reforming, and if someone should, it would only make you stronger. Start your church, have your services, and I'll promise to visit you.
God works in mysterious ways, and if He's gotta plan, He's gotta plan.
If you want to find me I'll be up in the balcony, first row, second seat from the end, or at the end, usually if i can get it.
Nice site.

Author: ChicagoX
Subject: Re: Dr. Samuel Lee's Success

Mike, please don't buy into that "it was all for your good in the big picture" theory, and please don't put it into practice in your own life or future ministry. The good Christians in UBF are God's successes IN SPITE OF Samuel Lee's abuses. Remember, they're God's successes, and you're one of them. My Christianity came about through influences other than Samuel Lee (my Bible teachers, books, personal Bible study, other churches). In my experience, Samuel Lee's behavior has only served to push me away from Christianity. As many good Christians have been produced in UBF, just as many angry, disillusioned people have been produced. That's not a record I am proud of. That's not a record that I would call "success." I've seen you become disillusioned too, Mike. Your "zeal" for UBF activities isn't what it used to be. If you hadn't experienced this disillusionment, you wouldn't be as open to the idea of reform as you indicated. If Samuel Lee's wrongdoings are truly responsible for my desire for justice, then
I
thank him, but does that mean I should stop seeking justice?

Author: Michael Mark
Subject: Re: Dr. Samuel Lee's Success

X, i do buy into the theory of the larger picture scheme, because i do believe that God works in mysterious ways and what you think is going on may not exactly be what is going on. on the other hand, i do not plan to practice that in my future ministry, if it means that people will be hurt in the process. i do not plan to make people suffer for a "greater good," and i do not plan to impose on people what i think God's will is. but for me personally, i doubt that without my shepherd i would have never became the christian i am today, albeit weak, stronger than i would have been. there wouldn't be those times where i really wrestled with God, tormenting everyone around me, because i know that elsewhere the pressure isn't as high to "stay" as it is in ubf. i guess people are apt to forget though, because it wasn't until now that i remembered such an incident, typing it here on this site, i never took a second look at it's importance, until just now.
And now that I look at Samuel Lee, he started out
with good intentions. Where he went wrong I don't know, but maybe after achieving so much power, him being a regular sinner himself, made and is still making some powerful decisions that can literally kill. X, i think justice should always be sought because it can never be achieved. Philosophy lesson over, haha. Bye.

Author: Michael Mark
Subject: Re: Dr. Samuel Lee's Success

i am soooooooooooooo sorry. i didnt mean there was no justice. i was thinking of john stuart mill at the time, and he talked about happiness being unatainable if you are trying to attain it, but attainable if you aren't trying. happiness comes to you, so to speak. i just used the two interchangably, which was wrong of me, i'm sorry. don't nobody lose hope, justice is something that can be reached. my heart was pounding, i was hoping nobody read that last post yet...phew! have a good one.

Author: Begging to differ
Subject: Re: Dr. Samuel Lee's Success

Actually, Michael, looking back on my life since I've left UBF a number of years ago, I realize that I only really grew as a Christian after I left. Not that I'm denying that some people are blessed and grow in UBF. But for me, and I bet for a lot of others, real growth in the walk of faith started happening after UBF. If anything, I felt an overall sense of suffocation in UBF, rather than Christian nurture. But as I said, different people experience different things, by the grace of God.

Also, even if God may work some good despite the evil of men, that does not excuse the evil that they do. The Exile in the Old Testament resulted in some good for the Israelites, but Babylon was still punished for her crimes. Something to think about.

Author: Ichabod
Subject: Re: Dr. Samuel Lee's Success

I keep saying the same thing over and over again...here goes again. The problem is not what great sinners SL and the other leaders are. This is a given. The problem is that there is no counterbalance within UBF to check human weakness. The result is natural. It happens over and over again when a leader constantly asks others to defer to them and people willingly comply, abuse ALWAYS occurs in that situation.

Christ never meant the church to be autocratic. It is a priesthood of believers. The idea of spiritual order based on hierarchy and seniority is foreign to the Bible. There is spiritual order but it is based on love and equality in Christ and submission to Him and to one another, not on lording it over others as UBF leaders so magnificently do. AND THEY INDEED DO LORD IT OVER PEOPLE!!

Author: Nick Timlin
Subject: Re: Dr. Samuel Lee's Success

Success is very important, and it should be rewarded. The problem I have with the success of the UBF is that it is totally misrepresented.

For example, how did the UBF begin? According to the official UBF accounts, Sam was working in a church, where various college kids were coming for Bible study and worship. Then he left the church, presumably taking these students with him.

This scenario can show that Sam started the UBF, but how did the UBF grow? Did Sam go out and recruit all the new members for the next forty years? Did he just direct the operation, and not recruit new members? Here is where the trouble starts in trying to give credit for the success. If he was the director, then he can be rewarded for that. But then what is the reward for all the other members who brought all the new souls to the UBF?

Apparently it is nothing. Nobody is credited for any of their contributions to the UBF except Sam. (Note: Please don't confuse this with heavenly rewards. That is
another way Sam turns people's thinking around so they can't follow a simple conversation. i.e. "God is our reward". This is absolutely true, but we are talking about people not God at this point. Remember Sam is not God.) And if the UBF "rules" of are 'we owe it all to Sam', then who gets the credit for something that goes terribly wrong? Naturally it should be the one guy who is credited for doing everything. But he will not take any credit for that. He creates a scapegoat for anything and everything.

For example, compare the UBF to a giant oil tanker, and Sam as the captain. Along with his first mate, the captain makes all the decisions about the voyage. The tanker crashes, and oil pours out. The captain blames the cook, and the whole crew vilifies the cook and throws him into the ocean. That is the end of the problem. Or not?

The same thing is happening in UBF. So much of the real precious cargo, our precious coworkers in Christ, has been wasted. The captain of UBF is
willing to decimate the vessel in order to keep himself as the captain. He is throwing money around all over the world. People took that money out of their childrens' mouths to give for Jesus, and it is being used for bribes. He is villifying people. He is calling them childish names like 'dog'.

Through the last forty years there are too many tragic stories. There were families and individuals violated. There were careers and reputations destroyed. There were even people driven to suicide. The only response is to cover them up, and when that fails then he will manufacture a scapegoat.

The success of the UBF is due to many people pouring out their lives as living sacrifices. To give the credit for success to one man is the result of one man's attempt to brainwash people. It is another example of the black/white, night/day and other comparisons where Sam is totally right and everyone else is totally wrong. Please reflect and pray about this. The UBF condition is in critical
condition.

Author: Glad-2-B-Out 2d Gen.
Subject: Re: Dr. Samuel Lee's Success

Begging to differ:

I have to agree with you.

Before leaving UBF, I had started to wonder about many things that seemed to be mere givens in UBF. For one, UBF seemed to believe that every man's mission is to feed sheep (i.e., 1:1 ministry). Well, what about those in churches who don't have a 1:1 ministry? Were they not obeying God? Did this mean that it was impossible to lead a good Christian life outside of UBF?

1:1 ministry and who had how many sheep seemed to be the most important things in UBF. As a child growing up in UBF, and especially as a teenager, I dealt with anger and resentment towards my parents, who seemed to care more about sheep than they did for me. Although they now regret much of what they did then back then, my parents did pretty much believe that if they did God's mission (i.e., feed sheep), God would take care of their family. Well, maybe God did take care of me... but it took me years to get over my anger. All throughout college, my parents' many
attempts to make up for lost years only made me angrier. It was only after college that my heart somehow melted.

I don't know... maybe God did use UBF to bring many souls to him... but I personally don't have many fond memories of UBF. I only remember feeling taken for granted, feeling burdened by so many rules, and wishing I had been "free" to enjoy life before being brought into UBF (which I equated with Christianity).

It was only when I started going to regular churches and started getting to know non-UBF Christians that I started to understand and experience that the Christian life is something I could actually enjoy. I learned that it is possible to have a 1:1, personal relationship with God. I learned that the Christian life was not merely about feeding sheep and thus earning brownie points with God.

I also saw people who didn't depend on orders from church leaders for every little step in their lives. Instead, I saw people who through their relationship with God, sought
primarily to hear God's voice in their lives. Moreover, church leaders never gave orders. Rather, they themselves depended on their relationship with God to determine who would be best for a job, and then asked the person if they would pray about doing the job. In sum, the focus was not on just obeying leaders on the belief that they were carrying out God's plan, but on walking with God themselves and being close to Him that they could be spiritually sensitive to his guidance.

I could go on and on, but the most important thing I learned outside UBF was the gospel. Somehow, amidst all the lessons about suffering for the sake of Christ, obeying God/leaders, and doing his mission, I had missed the gospel in UBF. I had somehow never understood that my salvation had nothing to do with what I did or could ever do. I never understood that God's faithfulness did not depend on my faithfulness. And I had NO understanding of grace.

Outside UBF, I came to understand that it was only because of
Christ that I was saved. And I learned that even if I strayed or faltered, God would not. I was amazed by the knowledge that in spite of my shortcomings and failures, I would ultimately stand before God totally without shame purely becuase of what Christ had already done. In light of my glaring shortcomings, this truly was amazing to me.

I think UBF has put Christianity into a box by defining one mission for everyone. I also think many in UBF miss out on all the great Christian scholars and workers out there who have so much to offer. God is so much bigger than UBF's definition of Him. UBF needs to stop believing it is tbe best organization out there and consider what others have to say as well. Finally, I think UBF has diminished the gospel by putting works over grace. The whole point of the cross was because all the works in the world could not save us. And even after being saved, do we seriously think our works now will impress GOD?

Ecc. 5:1 sums up the Christian life for me. It
says that when we go to God, we must go to listen rather than to offer the sacrifice of fools. It says we must guard our steps. I understand this to mean that what God wants most from me is for me is not works. What God wants most is my heart. He wants me to walk with him (through Bible study and prayer)and thus, know and recognize and hear his voice. If my works don't stem from this relationship, my works are nothing but "the sacrifice of fools." And in a church where everyone is busy running around listening to people's orders, is there really room for God?

I apologize if I've digressed, but this forum has really been cathartic.

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