Date Posted:12:41:35 04/17/02 Wed Author: Holly Lisle Subject: Temp Transcript from Writing Series Characters, Session Two
<@Holly> Morning, Yvonne!
<@Yvonne> hi Holly
<@Yvonne> ping
<@@Holly> Getting kicked again?
<@Yvonne> yep
<@@Holly> That has to be frustrating. What kind of connection are you on?
<@Yvonne> dial up 56k
<@@Holly> Yeah. When' I'm on that one, I get bounced, too.
<@@Holly> Makes things really interesting.
<@Yvonne> have to remember not to muck about in other windows
<@@Holly> And now the site is messing up, and I had three or four characters left to read about.
<@Yvonne> so, you didn't like my character, huh?
<@@Holly> The Exterminator??
<@Yvonne> yeah
<@@Holly> I think it has the potential to be funny. I'm just not sure where the stories are going to be. Could you give me a couple of one-liners?
<@Gayle> morning ladies...were we suppose to post about our characters?
<@Yvonne> hmm, not sure it's supposed to be funny
<@Peggy Kurilla> Good morning, everyone.
<@@Holly> Morning, Gayle, Peggy!
<@@Holly> I'm not sure whose characters I read and whose I didn't before the site locked up on me, so if I haven't gotten to yours yet, I apologize.
<@Yvonne> the stories are going to be mysteries most likely, who keeps dumping bodies into the sewers to get eaten, who's mage experiments have escaped, or have they, that sort of thing
<@Gayle> I take it the site is intermittant and is working when it wants to
<@@Holly> Gayle -- that's pretty much it.
<@Gayle> well, then I post go post her after class
<@Peggy Kurilla> Holly--will you be covering aspects of a series itself, not just the characters?
<@@Holly> N54 has been spotty the last couple of days.
<@Gayle> I better go post...
<@Jehane> Hi people!
<@Peggy Kurilla> Morning, jehane.
<@Yvonne> hi jehane
<@@Holly> Peggy -- today we're going to work on that -- how you take the characters you have and incorporate them into a series.
<@Gayle> morning Jehane...or rather for you evening
<@Catherine/Splodge> Hi everyone
<@Jehane> I haven't posted mine yet, just got on the net so will do that directly
<@@Holly> Hi, Jehane, Catherine.
<@Gayle> morning cathernine
<@Peggy Kurilla> Hm... I realized yesterday I forgot one blindingly obvious and successful series character: Dirk Pitt.
<@@Holly> I'll get the ones I missed after class.
<@Jehane> Actually morning now Gayle...just after midnight here
<@Peggy Kurilla> Problem is, Pitt's history is linked to Vietnam, which would make him in his 50's now.... but he's not that old.
<@@Holly> Peggy -- I forgot one that is going to be one of our major examples today <@g> Miles Vorkosigan.
<@Yvonne> guess you missed my story post
<@RobertAndAri> Who's Miles VOrkosigan?
<@Peggy Kurilla> My question is, how can you give your character a history without running into that time problem?
<@Krista> Morning!
<@kiarlie> hiya
<@Gayle> Jehane...what's the time difference between Cal and you?
<@Jehane> Cal being California?
<@@Holly> Got sidetracked, Yvonne. Having bodies showing up instantly gives it more appeal. I wasn't getting bodies from the workup, just rats and bugs. <@g>
<@Peggy Kurilla> <@waving to Robert, Krista, Kiarlie, Catherine> and <@scratching Ari's ears>
<@Gayle> morning krista, kiarlie
<@RobertAndAri> Purr!
<@Gayle> yes
<@Yvonne> "giant" rats and bugs
<@kiarlie> <@puts on dunces hat> haven't written down anything for homework - its still mostly in my head :(
<@@Holly> Miles Vorkosigan is Lois Bujold's series character. She's won for or five Hugos with him.
<@Jehane> Not sure, but I'm at UTC+9.5, and it's currently nearly 12:30
<@RobertAndAri> Yeah, the Exterminator looked a little nastier in chat. <@G>
<@kiarlie> afternoon gayle - its almost 4pm for me :)
<@Yvonne> I didn't think we were supposed to do the series set up, thought it was just the character
<@RobertAndAri> Ah, okay. Casualty of too many years of poverty.
<@@Holly> I show us at five til.
<@Krista> I've got ten to...
<@RobertAndAri> I couldn't do Galdr Treebreaker without some world building sketching! It was bizarre. He made no sense without context.
<@Gayle> okay, thanks...it's about 7 50am here
<@Anon_58> holly - is it okay to lurk in this class? i wasn't at yesterday's one
<@@Holly> We'll give folks a couple more minutes.
<@@Holly> Lurking is fine.
<@RobertAndAri> I did 2,000 words instead of a 2 paragraph sketch because I needed his sidekick, key incidents in his life and the world.
<@kiarlie> lol robert have you ever started a post and kept it short?? :p
<@RobertAndAri> Once in a blue moon, Kia
<@@Holly> I haven't gotten to the last few characters because the site locked up on me. Not sure what the problem is, but I'll go take a look after class.
<@RobertAndAri> Galdr will probably boil down to a paragraph blurb once I've written a book or story about him.
<@kiarlie> lol
<@Krista> Hope my character works...she's new to me but not new to the world. I've been working on kind of a prologue novel.
<@RobertAndAri> Galdr will work.
<@RobertAndAri> I'm pretty sure he'll work -but a lot will depend on his tribe and his interaction with dragons.
<@@Holly> brb
<@Jehane> My character is the first I've created for a universe I've had at the back of my mind for a while.
<@Gayle> I have a very rough idea of my character...she not as fantastic as my other ladies...
<@Peggy Kurilla> Sounds the same as me, Gayle.
<@Krista> Pretty close to what I did, too.
<@kiarlie> i think n54 has died again
<@Krista> oh no!!
<@Peggy Kurilla> oh, well... <@sigh>
<@@Holly> bak
<@Gayle> I wanted her to have a few more failings...
<@RobertAndAri> Purr
<@RobertAndAri> I don't have a lot of violent conflict in his char description yet, but nobody's insulted him yet either. lol
<@@Holly> It was dying on me just a little while ago. And I was making nice progress through the character studies, too.
<@RobertAndAri> One of the things he gets to do that I can't is punch out anyone who insults him, immediately, like a Klingon would.
<@Jehane> .
<@Yvonne> ..
<@Peggy Kurilla> .
<@Anon_77> hi all
<@CiceroCat> :-)
<@@Holly> Okay -- by my clock, it's about time. Anyone else read differently?
<@RobertAndAri> Hi anon 77
<@CiceroCat> ditto
<@CiceroCat> hi robert :-)
<@Peggy Kurilla> My clock says 8 a.m. Good to go. )
<@RobertAndAri> My clocks off, I don't care, I'm here! purr CC
<@Peggy Kurilla> LOL Robert.
<@@Holly> Okay -- let's go, then.
<@Gayle> yeah that sounds right...mine is 5 minutes fast
<@@Holly> Welcome to day two of Writing Series Characters.
<@@Holly> Class Two -- Hero, Heroine, Sidekick, Villain.
<@Jenny> Hello, everyone.
<@RobertAndAri> Hi Jenny
<@Krista> Hi.
<@CiceroCat> hi jenny, beth
<@@Holly> Today we'll be focusing on the way the characters and the series interact, how you actually go about writing book after book with the same characters, and what will let your series live versus what will kill it.
<@Peggy Kurilla> Hi, all newcomers!
<@Just Cailin...> <@waves some>
<@CiceroCat> hi cailin :-)
<@Krista> Hmmm...are you looking personality characteristics or series characteristics?
<@Krista> looking for...
<@@Holly> The question on the board is "What characteristics make you want to read about series characters?" but it could just as well be "What characteristics of a series make you keep coming back for more?"
<@@Holly> Both are so tightly intertwined that you can't separate one from the other.
<@RobertAndAri> Setting - worldbuilding - schtick
<@Kelley> humor
<@Peggy Kurilla> Predictability--when I pick up a book in this series, I know what I'm getting.
<@Krista> Good! I would have to say the setting is part of it
<@Yvonne> .
<@Yvonne> .
<@@Holly> I'm going to give us the first one -- and it applies to both the series and to series characters. And it is Same, But Different.
<@Yvonne> ..
<@Jehane> Characters who constantly struggle for their minor victories even if they are losing the war.
<@CiceroCat> maybe the premise or idea behind them? what the character will have to do or whatever
<@RobertAndAri> Yeah, premise and setting aren't the same thing, though real intertwined.
<@Krista> I like good vs. evil...does that count?
<@Gayle> the challenges the character has to face and will he overcome it in time
<@CiceroCat> yeah, that gayle :-)
<@RobertAndAri> Theme
<@Peggy Kurilla> Krista--yes, but narrowed down. Bond vs. SPECTRE.
<@Yvonne> grr, got bumped, what was the question?
<@Catherine/Splodge> the battles the characters are fighting matter to you
<@CiceroCat> wb yvonne--it's up on the group board
<@@Holly> Okay, all the things you're throwing into the ring are valid, but some of them are equally valid for any book.e
<@Yvonne> ah, thanks
<@Krista> aahhh...true!
<@@Holly> Those are Theme, Conflict, and the challenges the character faces.
<@Yvonne> .
<@@Holly> You have to have those in any book you write, and they have to be well-represented on every page. However, series writing demands those plus more.
<@@Holly> It's the "plus more" we want to dig into today.
<@Kelley> consistency
<@Krista> stretched out Self-discovery, usally it relates to character's abilities
<@CiceroCat> good one kelley :-)
<@Just Cailin...> <@sighs and turns on the magnifier>
<@Krista> nifty antagonists....lol...I love it!
<@Just Cailin...> If I disappear it's because my computer locked up.
<@Yvonne> that can get kinda tedious though
<@Peggy Kurilla> Amazing we all forgot about the antagonists.....
<@@Holly> We have a nice little list, so let's start looking at what's there. We'll see what we can add as we go
<@@Holly> First -- Same But Different.
<@Krista> k
<@@Holly> This is the credo of the series.
<@@Holly> People find a book. They like it. They want more like it. The first person they will look to is the person who provided the first thrill.
<@@Holly> You.
<@@Holly> So your job, should you decide to accept it, is to give them what they want.
<@Peggy Kurilla> (Why wouldn't we accept it? Just curious.....)
<@@Holly> The same characters. The same feel. The same excitement, pacing, world, neighborhood.
<@@Holly> But a different story.
<@Krista> makes sense to me...now that I think about it
<@@Holly> Peggy has a good question. Why WOULDN'T we choose to accept this.
<@Krista> Maybe we're tired of the series?
<@Just Cailin...> (Get sombody to channel sir Arthur Conan Doyle and ask him why he killed Holmes in the first place. That'll be your answer, Yvonne.)
<@CiceroCat> difficulty?
<@Jehane> because we're bored with the characters
<@Krista> Don't want to write that character any more?
<@@Holly> The answer is, because if you're not careful, you're ready to kill your characters by book three and yourself by book eight.
<@Gayle> or the character (tired that is)
<@Kelley> because we want something more
<@@Holly> Because writing something different but different is a hell of a hell of a lot of fun.
<@Krista> lol
<@CiceroCat> :-D
<@@Holly> Because as writers we want to grow, but as series writers, we have to avoid growth, because your growth as a writer can kill your series.
<@Krista> Sometimes...the series should die. (Did I just say that?)
<@@Holly> So, right of the bat, here is a hard truth. Not everyone is going to enjoy the lucrative world of series writing.
<@Kelley> Can you write a series, and write more meaningfull stuff on the side?
<@Kelley> meaningful -sorry
<@@Holly> And the times when you create a series character you know you can go the distance with, your publisher or blind stinking do-dah Fate will kill that series and character with one blow.
<@Just Cailin...> I would probably go nuts. I change like the seasons, and so does my writing. So if I write a series, I'll probably write a lot of stand-alone material too
<@@Holly> Kelley -- it tends not to work out well. Here's why. You'll do your series books. Your series fans will buy them like mad.
<@RobertAndAri> I like series writing because sometimes I get ideas too big for one book.
<@@Holly> You'll do a non-series book. You'll sell fifteen copies.
<@CiceroCat> i think if i ever do a series it'd be a planned short one, like trilogy or quartet...
<@@Holly> Publishers will refuse to buy anything non-series from you.
<@Just Cailin...> That sucks. >.<@
<@Krista> for real? Why? That's crazy....
<@CiceroCat> ooh, that wouldn't be good. I guess that's when you go by a pseudonym ;-)
<@Peggy Kurilla> Lawrence Block's novel RANDOM WALK comes to mind.....
<@Kelley> Readers expect everything you write to be the same as what was before
<@Yvonne> are you saying you can't write a series if that's the road you take?
<@@Holly> Krista -- Crazy for whom? For you, the writer who just wants to have fun? Or for the publisher, who just lost his ass on your last book?
<@Yvonne> blah, bad sentence, can only write series, if that's the path you take
<@RobertAndAri> Piers Anthony writes multiple series and I don't know one Anthony fan who likes *all* of them.
<@Jehane> really? If I find a good new author, I'll read everything of theirs that I can find
<@Krista> But if your series is selling well and they won't buy a stand alone...that seems very strange to me.
<@Peggy Kurilla> We've already established that the people on this board are willing to experiment; the majority of people outside are not. LOL
<@CiceroCat> do they feel it's taking time away from the series work, then?
<@Kelley> True, Peggy
<@@Holly> Jehane -- the first thing writers need to know about themeselves is that they don't count in the grand scheme of "What constitutes reader behavior."
<@Yvonne> guess that's why everyone has a pseudonym these days
<@@Holly> Writers read everything by everyone.
<@@Holly> Readers have three writers they buy all the time, and two more they're trying or recommendation. Period.
<@@Holly> And they will drop a writer in a heartbeat if the writer does not give them the very specific thing they want, and that they've gotten from previous works.
<@Jehane> ok...whereas I'm always in search of new writers to try
<@Bethanny> Couldn't you just use a pseudonym for the stand-alones?
<@Gayle> I guess then I've always been a writer at heart...I love reading lots of authors
<@Jehane> ditto Gayle
<@@Holly> Bethanny -- yes -- pseudonyms are the answer if you have a successful series and want to write other stuff.
<@CiceroCat> same here, jehane--i look for certain things in novels. Have favorites, but spend hours browsing the whole S&SF section
<@RobertAndAri> My other thought was "try to be Isaac Asimov and do so many different things readers trust they'll get surprised and know i won't drop their favorite"
<@Just Cailin...> LOL, Robert!
<@@Holly> Robert -- it's a nice thought, but you might just as well try to be Stephen King. Freaks of nature are one of a kind.
<@CiceroCat> :-)
<@@Holly> <@g>
<@Jehane> CC - I spend hours *drooling* over the SFF section! :)
<@Peggy Kurilla> As I read the other day "Even Stephen King couldn't duplicate his success."
<@Kelley> instant gratification - there are thousands of us for the reader to choose from if we disappoint
<@CiceroCat> lol, my book store is 60 miles away -- so my family only goes maybe 3 times per year
<@CiceroCat> so i'm going to spend my time in the book store
<@@Holly> You can only be you -- and when you're faced with a lucrative series that's sucking the soul out of you but paying everything you dreamed of , and going back to first-novel prices with a pseudonym, the choices get pretty hard.
<@RobertAndAri> Hm, didn't mean it that way, Holly. More just to be that prolific, try to get it all in print one way or another and eventually get trusted that if a series is taking off, I'll continue it *and* my other stuff.
<@@Holly> See -- and that's the BIG problem with a pseudonym. You guys don't realize about the money.
<@Yvonne> so how do you keep your series interesting to write?
<@Gayle> one of the best things that happened to me when I worked in the bookstore was being an advance reader..found lots of new authors
<@@Holly> Under your successful name, you're worth a lot of dollars after a while.
<@@Holly> But under a psuedonym, you're back to beginner prices.
<@Peggy Kurilla> I think I get the money part, Holly. But if you start your pseudonymous (?) work early enough, wouldn't that offset the drop in price?
<@CiceroCat> but wouldn't a publisher know who you are under your pseudonym and be more willing to trust your works will succeed?
<@@Holly> Peggy -- there are no guarantees. If your pseudonym takes of as well as your other work, maybe.
<@Kelley> Ouch, Holly. It's like taking a drastic demotions at work - but still working as hard.
<@Krista> What about starting another series?
<@@Holly> But Stephen King tried to duplicate his success under a new name because he was so prolific, and found himself a midlist writer.
<@Krista> Point taken...
<@CiceroCat> ah
<@Jehane> Didn't his Richard Bachman stuff get a cult following?
<@@Holly> Krista -- a second series might work. You are unlikely to get the readers of the first series to read it, but you might get new readers.
<@@Holly> Jehane -- a small cult following.
<@RobertAndAri> Asimov had two really hit series in his life - Founation and Robot Series - yet all the rest of his 500 books did pretty good and h e had a number of stand alone hits.
<@RobertAndAri> So when I think about him, I assume there are peaks and troughs.
<@@Holly> People who read only a few books a year -- the majority of readers -- really want Same but Different, and they have no tolerance at all for anything that is not just exactly what they want.
<@CiceroCat> if they are series set in the same world, but with different main characters, is that more successful?
<@Gayle> but he also wrote in his degree field of math and science
<@Krista> At this point, I'll take what I can get!!
<@CiceroCat> (if you start a new series, i mean)
<@RobertAndAri> Right, the Xanth fans aren't the Incarnations of Immortality fans.
<@@Holly> Okay -- anyway, I think we've covered Same but Different fairly well, along with some of the pitfalls.
<@Krista> agreed
<@CiceroCat> yup :-)
<@Jehane> ok
<@@Holly> No writing is the easy way to fame and fortune, and series are no different.
<@@Holly> So on to Setting and Worldbuilding.
<@Kelley> Asimov had a smaller field of writers to go against.
<@@Holly> Series are set in a very specific locale. That locale can be as big as a universe,
<@Yvonne> and a different publishing industry to work with
<@@Holly> like the Vorkosigan books by Lois Bujold, or as small as a tiny town in England, like Agatha Christie's Marples.
<@@Holly> They can permit their characters to travel.
<@@Holly> But even if the MC travels, he takes along the sidekick, the Arch-nemesis, the heroine, and assorted other baggage.
<@@Holly> So basically you'll be staging the same play in somebody else's living room.
<@@Holly> The props may be different, but the story is still pretty much the same.
<@@Holly> This is where preplanning can save your sanity later.
<@Yvonne> .
<@@Holly> Make sure you've built not only a lot of regular sets, but non-contrived reasons to drag the character into new and exotic locales on a regular basis, and a job that keeps him meeting new and interesting people.
<@Peggy Kurilla> Bond traveling all over the world to stop SPECTRE (or whoever).... yeah, I see.
<@Catherine/Splodge> One of the things that I like about book series is the new places and new characters encountered each time
<@CiceroCat> hmm, did anyone read the Cat Who series by LJB? I know he changed locations.
<@@Holly> Any sort of world will do. But just as you need the parts that will become your readers' cozy armchair -- whether those are the MC's favorite tavern or the park where he walks his dog,
<@CiceroCat> he meaning main character
<@@Holly> you're also going to need built in breaks for yourself. Know you'll need them going in.
<@@Holly> Plan for them in advance.
<@Catherine/Splodge> You actually get to go to more places in an interesting world with a series than you do with a single novel
<@CiceroCat> breaks?
<@@Holly> Catherine -- yes, you do. But you may have to come up with fifty of them. Not easy to do.
<@Peggy Kurilla> Even Miss Marple had adventures outside her little village...whatever it was called.
<@RobertAndAri> Do you mean the variables, the elbow room for difference between volumes?
<@@Holly> By the end of her career, Miss Marple was one well-traveled old lady.
<@CiceroCat> :)
<@Yvonne> (getting ideas already)
<@CiceroCat> what if your series main character is a traveller?
<@RobertAndAri> Bond there was a comforting armchair feel about "new exotic country and restaurant and casino"
<@@Holly> Robert -- yes -- plan for elbow room. Your characters might be happy sticking to the dark, twistly little streets of Wayfareres Catch for a hundred volumes, but you will be start raving bonkers by ten.
<@RobertAndAri> lol Holly
<@CiceroCat> lol
<@@Holly> Right, Robert -- that's the other sort of frustrating thing about series characters. They may go to different countries, but they end up hanging out in the same sorts of places.
<@CiceroCat> go to another country to only end up in a McDonald's restaurant lol
<@RobertAndAri> What about long backstory arcs like "the dragons adopted him but none of them mentioned that to him"
<@@Holly> The adventurer will have her ruins, the gambler will have his dens of iniquity, the exterminator will have her sewers.
<@Krista> CC--now that's something I would do!!
<@@Holly> Make sure you LIKE hanging out where your characters hang out.
<@CiceroCat> ditto, Krista if I ever travelled :-)
<@Peggy Kurilla> (I once ended up in a Burger King in Glasgow for breakfast.... don't ask. <@g>)
<@CiceroCat> lol peggy
<@Krista> Hmmm...I'm glad I haven't gotten too much figured out on my character...
<@@Holly> Long backstory arcs that bring in shockers are what is commonly known in a series as "Jumping the Shark."
<@Krista> I need to incorporate these tips!
<@Peggy Kurilla> ROFL Holly. I love that site!
<@CiceroCat> :)
<@RobertAndAri> That seems familiar, is that a good thing?
<@Peggy Kurilla> That's a VERY BAD THING, Robert.... at least in the context I understand it. YMMV
<@@Holly> It's the point where the writer gets so desperate for something different that he puts Fonzie on waterskies and sends him over a shark, and the entire audience says "'scuse me" and walks out.
<@CiceroCat> lol
<@Krista> ah
<@Krista> lol
<@Kelley> lol
<@CiceroCat> nice picture i have in my mind now :-)
<@Jenny> Oh, my. <@G>
<@@Holly> If you haven't built it in by the first book or three, and if it's significantly out of character, it is a BAD idea.
<@CiceroCat> what if you lay hints down for that back story arc in all the novels?
<@CiceroCat> ah.... nevermind lol :-)
<@CiceroCat> just answered my q :-)
<@Yvonne> .
<@@Holly> Everything you need to know about Spenser as a character, you know in any book you pick up about him.
<@RobertAndAri> Yeah, what CC said - laid in the groundwork for it while designing the series. They're onstage early and will always be a little paternal or maternal to him.
<@@Holly> Same for Bond.
<@@Holly> If they're there in the beginning, they'll work, Robert - but it they're there in the beginning, they aren't a vacation for you. Because you're going to have to mention them to some degree in every single book.
<@CiceroCat> i wonder if his revelation of that tho, robert, would mean the end of the story? or would it be a new turn. Like the change of location in that Cat Who series
<@@Holly> Okay -- on to Humor, because we have a lot of ground to cover.
<@Krista> humor is so hard for me to write...any tips would be appreciated!
<@CiceroCat> don't some readers get a little tired of having the same information about the character repeated to them in every novel just so that newcommers can learn quickly about the character?
<@@Holly> If you start a series in which your MC puns, babe, you had better love puns, because he's going to have to crack them in every single book.
<@Peggy Kurilla> Humor is tough for anyone to write, Krista. Read Connie Willis.
<@CiceroCat> humor -- I don't even have a funny bone!
<@Kelley> I love Douglas Adams
<@Just Cailin...> I loved the Eddings' books because of the humor in it. I don't have much of a sense of humor and appreciate anyone that CAN make me laugh.
<@Krista> and what might be funny to me...isn't necessarily going to crack a smile on the reader's face..
<@@Holly> Cicero -- regulars do get tired of the same info -- but series bring in a steady stream of new readers, all who will start with an odd book in the middle of the series.
<@RobertAndAri> I noticed in some series, books or TV, that after awhile there will be a mostly humor volume or episode that makes fun of its own premise. And that will become memorable.
<@CiceroCat> some people it seems to come to easier--like if the author is a natural funny person :-)..... thnx holly :-)
<@@Holly> The characterization you do in book one, you'll still be doing in book one-hundred.
<@Kelley> Arthur Dent is my hero
<@CiceroCat> lol kelley
<@Jehane> Pratchett fan here :)
<@CiceroCat> i love DA's books... those are *SO* funny
<@Krista> I'm really not funny...how big of a deal is this?
<@Krista> can't tell a decent joke to save my life
<@CiceroCat> maybe it doesn't have to be rip-roaring humor, but slight situational humor?
<@@Holly> I love Pratchett's work, but Pratchett doesn't count. He isn't writing series characters. He's writing repeating characters in a series world. Big difference.
<@@Holly> Krista -- If you don't start with humor, it won't be expected of you later.
<@Krista> Well, that's a relief!
<@Gayle> good...
<@RobertAndAri> I was thinking of Trouble with Tribbles, where all the familiar crew and bad guys had to deal with little fuzzy overbreeders.
<@CiceroCat> ditto!
<@@Holly> Kay Scarpetta has just about zero humor.
<@Jehane> What is the difference?
<@CiceroCat> lol robert
<@Krista> I second Jehane's question...
<@TeresaH> holly, can you explain what you mean about pratchett?
<@@Holly> Jehane -- a series character, which is what this group of classes is about, is one person that people want to read a hundred books about.
<@Krista> ah
<@Jehane> ok
<@@Holly> A series world is a world -- like Mercedes Lackeys' or Terry Pratchetts -- that have a hundred books set in different places.
<@CiceroCat> ah
<@Krista> are those easier on the writer?
<@@Holly> There may be some crossover characters, but nobody is sacred. Anybody can ide.
<@@Holly> die.
<@Jehane> makes sense
<@@Holly> Krista -- they are easier by far on the writer, but harder to sell, both to publishers and to the public.
<@Krista> Seems like it gives a little more creative freedom
<@RobertAndAri> With a series world can a series character happen by accident because readres loved that character?
<@CiceroCat> because people become attached to a certain character?
<@Krista> oh...hadn't thought of that...
<@@Holly> Readers want a best friend. They don't get that from a series world.
<@CiceroCat> I know I was to Talia
<@CiceroCat> in Mercedes Lackey's
<@Krista> I liked Talia, too!
<@CiceroCat> i haven't really read any of her other books since that series
<@Jehane> i liked vanyel <@sigh>
<@CiceroCat> :-) I got attached to Talia
<@@Holly> Right -- you liked Talia, and then Talia became a background character, and you never got any more books about Talia.
<@CiceroCat> and Rolan....
<@@Holly> See where this can be a problem for the writer?
<@Krista> yep
<@CiceroCat> yup :-)
<@Krista> now I can
<@Krista> sometimes I just have to have it shoved under my nose! hehe
<@RobertAndAri> Okay, so how do we create one that we become fans of our own series - so dedicated it's never boring?
<@Jehane> yes, I like certain characters of PRatchett's and Lackey's better than others
<@@Holly> Okay -- humor -- you can either have it or not, but if you start with it, you're stuck with it, and if you start without it, you're stuck without it.
<@@Holly> Robert -- that's tomorrows class. Today we're just looking over the obstacles in the terrain. <@g>
<@Krista> no introducing a humorous aquaintance here and there? (forgive my spelling..no spell checker!)
<@@Holly> Next -- Characters who Don't Give Up.
<@CiceroCat> maybe if it's like they say in the fandom of tv show--the babe of the week]
<@CiceroCat> or whatever
<@Yvonne> .
<@@Holly> This is basically self-explanatory. There has never been a series character in a successful who was not larger than life.
<@Peggy Kurilla> Wish-fulfillment again/still.
<@CiceroCat> :)
<@Krista> Exactly, Peggy.
<@@Holly> There have been very few who have not also been better looking, better smelling, and attractive to members of both sexes in the appropriate way.
<@CiceroCat> eternal optimists :-)
<@Kelley> What about Arthur Dent? He was pretty ordinary.
<@@Holly> The old "men want to be them, women want to bed them" line.
<@@Holly> Or in reverse.
<@Peggy Kurilla> Wasn't a series as Holly's using, Kelley. Was limited, not extended.
<@Krista> :-)
<@Kelley> Of course, it is a comedic series
<@CiceroCat> ah
<@@Holly> Even then, Arthur Dent is larger than life. He is the British Parody Everyman. The chap who can have tea while his world falls down around him,
<@@Holly> and who can then go out and save the world by bumbling through it.
<@CiceroCat> Do people want "Everymen" main series characters?
<@Kelley> True, very true!
<@CiceroCat> lol
<@@Holly> People want heroes. How you dress them up is up to you CC.
<@CiceroCat> ah, k
<@Yvonne> we can be heroes, just for one day
<@@Holly> Readers of series characters want someone reliable who they can turn to for a fix on their world view once every twelve months, who will save the world again and let them know everything is still all right.
<@@Holly> This is why I read series characters.
<@CiceroCat> kinda like Superman?
<@Krista> makes sense to me
<@@Holly> I do not read them to have my worldview changed. I read them to have my world-view upheld as right.
<@Peggy Kurilla> CC--Superman got TOO powerful in the early 80's. Which led to some pretty bizarre shark-infested waters.....
<@CiceroCat> :-) I think I understand -- or beginning to :-)
<@CiceroCat> ah, i'm a late comer to the Superman/CK thingy
<@CiceroCat> i heard they chagned his powers
<@CiceroCat> in the comic books
<@@Holly> If you give your characters all the cookies in the first episode, he has no conflict.
<@Peggy Kurilla> It was an overdoing of item #7 on the list--cool abilities that increased gradually over time.
<@@Holly> Superman got all the cookies. He's been a boring character and a pain to read about ever since.
<@CiceroCat> ah peggy
<@@Holly> His conflicts have had to be with characters so far from the norm that most people simply cannot relate.
<@CiceroCat> ah, I see... I never read the comic books, but watched tv show and read one book :-)
<@Peggy Kurilla> Which is why they revamped him in the late 1980's, Holly.
<@@Holly> And that takes us to General Premise.
<@Peggy Kurilla> He's much more believable now (er, you know what I mean)
<@CiceroCat> lol peggy--easier to suspend disbelief ?
<@Catherine/Splodge> At the same time, don they have to be just flawed enough so that the reader can relate to them, Holly?
<@Peggy Kurilla> That, and easier to believe he would have problems that readers can relate to.
<@@Holly> Batman was cool. He was conflicted. His parents were murdered in front of him, his only superpower was the budget to buy cool toys, and he could be hurt. Badly, and a lot.
<@CiceroCat> oh yeah-- i hate perfect characters
<@@Holly> The Dark Knight stuff is just brilliant.
<@Peggy Kurilla> Grim, but brilliant.
<@@Holly> Right.
<@Krista> Funny...I was just thinking about him! All that superman talk.
<@CiceroCat> lol
<@@Holly> Matt Scudder is another one. He's a guy. He was a cop. Alcoholism and the accidental shooting of a kid cost him his career.
<@Krista> Batman was someone you could relate to...if you had lots of money and...well, ok, maybe not.
<@Yvonne> do series characters have to be wounded?
<@Krista> I've never read Matt Scudder...who's the author?
<@CiceroCat> lol, krista
<@TeresaH> superman is a goody-goody
<@@Holly> He's dark. He's conflicted. He suffers for his failures, and yet he still believes in doing right, making the world better, helping those who can't help themselves.
<@Peggy Kurilla> Batman is more or less defined as the peak human--peak physical and mental condition, etc.....
<@Peggy Kurilla> Lawrence Block writes Scudder.
<@Krista> thanks!
<@CiceroCat> me neither, krista. -- i dunno, i liked the tv series, he was goody-goody, but they put more emphasis on Clark Kent
<@@Holly> As a character, he just SINGS. He resonates. He has it worse than most of us, and still rises to the occasion to be better than most of us.
<@Peggy Kurilla> CC--they've kind of done that in the comics now, too.
<@CiceroCat> neat
<@Peggy Kurilla> How about Nifty Antagonists, Holly? That seems to be even more critical than the others.
<@@Holly> Your general premise -- which some of you have already put together, is the world in which your MC fights for his ideals, the ideals that he fights for, and the types of conflicts that will recur.
<@@Holly> General Premise is actually the most important thing, because it defines your next fifty books.
<@@Holly> <@g>
<@Peggy Kurilla> AH!
<@CiceroCat> ah
<@Krista> so, knowing what you're MC is fighting for or against is key to the series.
<@Krista> do I have that right?
<@CiceroCat> so you're general premise won't change much, will it? Just like the character isn't supposed to?
<@@Holly> Within the general premise, you determine whether your character is going to solve murders, rescue cats from trees, fight for truth and justice, or steal paintings and happen on crimes worse than his in the process.
<@Yvonne> .
<@@Holly> Whatever your premise is, it should be close to your heart. If you are an idealist , don't write a cynic. If your a cynic, don't take the plunge for idealism.
<@@Holly> You and your main character will be ready for divorce in three volumes if you do.
<@CiceroCat> k
<@Peggy Kurilla> You'll make it to three volumes? LOL
<@CiceroCat> :-)
<@@Holly> More than in any other form of fiction, in the series you and your MC need to be joined at the hip. He needs to be a reflection of you.
<@@Holly> Just for your own sanity, and the ability to keep going.
<@Krista> that makes sense
<@@Holly> He doesn't have to look like you or talk like you, but he has to see the world through your eyes and agree that's the way the world really is.
<@CiceroCat> ah :-) besides if it is truly important to you--the ideals you have, they may slip in--which will hurt the character if he doesn't have the same ideals
<@@Holly> We're almost out of time. So.
<@@Holly> Nifty Antagonists. You need them.
<@CiceroCat> :-)
<@Krista> Agreed!!
<@Catherine/Splodge> Yep
<@Krista> So, how do I get one?
<@@Holly> They need to fit in with your general premise, and be about the same SORT of villain. The same degree of evil -- from book to book.
<@CiceroCat> make the opposite of your protagonist, krista??
<@@Holly> Don't go Serial Killer, Cat Burglar, Plagarist.
<@Krista> opposite ideals, certainly.
<@Yvonne> is there such a thing as a recurring villain, not a series villain, but one who shows up for three books before he's vanquished?
<@Jehane2> or one who shows up every now and again?
<@RobertAndAri> "People who raise armies and try to take over the world." Evil high priests, would be Alexanders, a trickster shaman of his own tribe, varied ethnicity but "do'nt try to take over th eworld" is the main conflict?
<@Krista> The guy behind it all...you get glimpses of him while the henchmen handle the dirty work?
<@@Holly> Yes. There are recurring villains. Guys who get out of jail and come after the guy who put them there.
<@@Holly> Guys it takes three books to catch.
<@CiceroCat> :)
<@CiceroCat> k
<@@Holly> Women who make the hero fall from grace more than once.
<@@Holly> Like that.
<@@Holly> And finally, the cool abilities. Don't make them too cool to start with, be stingy handing out upgrades.
<@Peggy Kurilla> Like
<@@Holly> Don't let your character ever have all the cookies.
<@@Holly> And now we are out of time.
<@@Holly> So -- homework tonight.
<@RobertAndAri> If sometimes evil sorceresses are antagonists and sometimes good bawds are just friends and dates, should I make sure he's multiply laid every volume?
<@Peggy Kurilla> Like Bond only gets the gadgets Q thinks he'll need?
<@Krista> rats!
<@Peggy Kurilla> ROFL Robert.
<@CiceroCat> lol, i enjoy your homework--wish i could skip class tomorrow for *this* class lol
<@@Holly> Go over your stuff from last night, revise as necessary, try to put together a premise that will carry you through a bunch of books.
<@Krista> hmmm
<@@Holly> <@g> CC.
<@Krista> ok
<@CiceroCat> :)
<@@Holly> I'll get the transcript posted as soon as I can.
<@Krista> Thanks, Holly!!
<@RobertAndAri> Thanks, Holly!
<@Peggy Kurilla> Thanks Holly. As always, educational and entertaining!
<@@Holly> And if you can make it, I'll see you tomorrow at 10 AM ET
<@Catherine/Splodge> ok Holly, thanks a lot!
<@@Holly> Thank you for coming.
<@Krista> I'll be here!
<@RobertAndAri> Wouldn't miss it for anything!
<@Jehane2> Thanks Holly. Another great class.
<@Gayle> thank you Holly
<@Kelley> THanks Holly, this was great!
<@Krista> Thank you for taking the time to help!
<@Jenny> Thanks, Holly.
<@CiceroCat> thanks holly! this was great! i just wish i could be here tomorrow
