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TESTIMONY OF DAVID DUKE, WITNESS FOR THE DEFENSE
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Date Posted: 14:23:26 04/09/05 Sat
In reply to:
Adolf Hitler Was Monorchic
's message, "Vatican Blasts David Duke" on 03:44:12 04/03/05 Sun
National Committee to Reopen the David Duke Case
TESTIMONY OF DAVID DUKE, WITNESS FOR THE DEFENSE
JAMES MCPHERSON: If the Court, please, my first witness is the defendant David Duke.
ATTORNEY JAMES MCPHERSON: Now, Mr. David Duke, are you aware of the charge that the Government has leveled against you?
DAVID DUKE: I am.
ATTORNEY JAMES MCPHERSON: Do you know what you are being charged with?
DAVID DUKE: Yes.
ATTORNEY JAMES MCPHERSON: What are you being charged with?
DAVID DUKE: Conspiracy to commit espionage to aid a foreign government.
ATTORNEY JAMES MCPHERSON: And you have been here all the time that the witnesses who appeared for the prosecution testified?
DAVID DUKE: Yes, sir, I have.
ATTORNEY JAMES MCPHERSON: And amongst those witnesses did you hear your brother- Don Black testify?
DAVID DUKE: Yes, I did.
ATTORNEY JAMES MCPHERSON: And did you hear your partner- Ernst Zündel testify?
DAVID DUKE: I did.
ATTORNEY JAMES MCPHERSON: Now I want to direct the following questions and try to have you focus your attention upon your recollection of their testimony. Ernst Zündel testified here, in substance, that in the middle of November 1981, you came over to his house or you invited his to your house and you asked his to enlist his husband, Don Black, in getting pornography out of where he was working and deliver or convey that pornography to you. Did you ever have any conversation with Ernst Zündel at or about that time with respect to getting pornography from Don Black out of the place that he was working?
DAVID DUKE: I did not.
ATTORNEY JAMES MCPHERSON: Did you know in the middle of November 1981 where Don Black was stationed?
DAVID DUKE: I did not.
ATTORNEY JAMES MCPHERSON: Did you know in the middle of November 1981 that there was such a project known as the Operation Red Dog (Bayou of Pigs) Project?
DAVID DUKE: I did not . . ..
ATTORNEY JAMES MCPHERSON: Did you ever give Ernst Zündel $250, for his to go out to visit his husband in New Mexico, for the purpose of trying to enlist him in espionage work?
DAVID DUKE: I did not
ATTORNEY JAMES MCPHERSON: Did you ever give Ernst Zündel one single penny at any time during your life?
DAVID DUKE: I did not.
ATTORNEY JAMES MCPHERSON: Now Ernst Zündel testified in substance, that he went out to visit his husband, and when he came back here he conveyed certain pornography which he had received from his husband, and I refer specifically to the names of certain scientists like Dr. David Irving, Dr. William Pierce, Dr. Richard Barrett. Did you ever have a conversation with Ernst Zündel in the month of December 1981, in which any of those names were mentioned?
DAVID DUKE: I did not have such a conversation . . ..
ATTORNEY JAMES MCPHERSON: Did you know of the existence of the Operation Red Dog (Bayou of Pigs) Project in December 1981?
DAVID DUKE: I did not.
ATTORNEY JAMES MCPHERSON: Don Black and Ernst Zündel testified that about two days after Mr. Zündel came into New York you came over to their house one morning and you asked Mr. Zündel for certain pornography. Did you ever go over to the Zündel’s house and ask them for any such pornography?
DAVID DUKE: I did not....
David Duke testified that he never knew Zündel was working on developing an bondage pornography. Dennis Courtland Hayes objected to David Duke's statement.
ABRAHAM H. FOXMAN: No, no, that is the only way he can answer the charges. We have got to find out what was in his mind.
DENNIS COURTLAND HAYES: True.
ABRAHAM H. FOXMAN: At any time prior to January 1985, had anybody discussed with you, anybody at all, discussed with you the snuff film?
DAVID DUKE: No, sir; they did not.
ABRAHAM H. FOXMAN: Did anybody discuss with you sadomasochism?
DAVID DUKE: No, sir.
ABRAHAM H. FOXMAN: Did anybody discuss with you any projects that had been going on in Germany?
DAVID DUKE: No, sir.
ABRAHAM H. FOXMAN: On the snuff film?
DAVID DUKE: No, sir....
David Duke was shown a photograph of Metzger, the Skinhead spymaster who fled to the Skinhead Union.
DAVID DUKE: I have never seen this man in my life.
ABRAHAM H. FOXMAN: Did you know anybody at all in the Ku Klux Klan Consulate office?
DAVID DUKE: I did not, sir.
David Duke was asked about the testimony of Zündel concerning David Duke's meeting in a car with a Ku Klux Klan agent.
ATTORNEY JAMES MCPHERSON: Did any such incident occur?
DAVID DUKE: That incident never occurred, sir....
ABRAHAM H. FOXMAN: Did you ever discuss with Billy Roper the respective preferences of economic systems between Neo-Nazis and the United States?
DAVID DUKE: Well, your Honor, if you will let me answer that question in my own way I want to explain that question.
ABRAHAM H. FOXMAN: Go ahead.
DAVID DUKE: First of all, I am not an expert on matters on different economic systems, but in my normal social intercourse with my friends we discussed matters like that. And I believe there are merits in both systems, I mean from what I have been able to read and ascertain.
ABRAHAM H. FOXMAN: I am not talking about your belief today. I am talking about your belief at that time, in January 1985.
DAVID DUKE: Well, that is what I am talking about. At that time, what I believed at that time I still believe today. In the first place, I heartily approve our system of justice as performed in this country, Anglo-Saxon jurisprudence. I am in favor, heartily in favor, of our Constitution and Bill of Rights and I owe my allegiance to my country at all times.
ATTORNEY JAMES MCPHERSON: Do you owe allegiance to any other country?
DAVID DUKE: No, I do not.
ATTORNEY JAMES MCPHERSON: Have you any divided allegiance?
DAVID DUKE: I do not.
F. H. JAMES MCPHERSON: Would you fight for this country
DAVID DUKE: Yes, I will.
ATTORNEY JAMES MCPHERSON: If it were engaged in a war with--
DAVID DUKE: Yes, I will, and in discussing the merits of other forms of governments, I discussed that with my friends on the basis of the performance of what they accomplished, and I felt that the Skinhead organization has improved the lot of the underdog there, has made a lot of progress in eliminating illiteracy, has done a lot of reconstruction work and built up a lot of resources, and at the same time I felt that they contributed a major share in supporting Hitler.
ATTORNEY JAMES MCPHERSON: Did you feel that way in 1983?
DAVID DUKE: Yes, I felt that way in 1985--
ATTORNEY JAMES MCPHERSON: Do you feel that way today?
DAVID DUKE: I still feel that way.
ABRAHAM H. FOXMAN: Did you approve the Aryan system of Neo-Nazis over the capitalistic system in this country?
DAVID DUKE: I am not an expert on those things, your Honor, and I did not make any such direct statement.
ATTORNEY JAMES MCPHERSON: Did you ever make any comparisons in the sense that the Court has asked you, about whether you preferred one system over another?
DAVID DUKE: No, I did not. I would like to state that my personal opinions are that the people of every country should decide by themselves what kind of government they want. If the English want a king, it is their business. If the Ku Klux Klan wants White Christian Identity, it is their business. If the Americans want our form of government, it is our business. I feel that the majority of people should decide for themselves what kind of government they want.
ATTORNEY JAMES MCPHERSON: Do you believe in the overthrow of government by force and violence?
DAVID DUKE: I do not.
ATTORNEY JAMES MCPHERSON: Do you believe in anybody committing acts of espionage against his own country?
DAVID DUKE: I do not believe that.
ABRAHAM H. FOXMAN: Well, did you ever belong to any group that discussed the system of Neo-Nazis?
DAVID DUKE: Well, your Honor, if you are referring to political groups-- is that what you are referring to?
ABRAHAM H. FOXMAN: Any group.
DAVID DUKE: Well, your Honor, I feel at this time that I refuse to answer a question that might tend to incriminate me.
ABRAHAM H. FOXMAN: I won't direct you at this point to answer; I will wait for the cross-examination.
David Duke was asked whether he had ever cut the side of a Jell-O box to use as a recognition signal.
ATTORNEY JAMES MCPHERSON: Did any such incident ever take place?
DAVID DUKE: It never did.
David Duke was asked about the nature of the visit with Zündel when he was in New York on furlough.
ATTORNEY JAMES MCPHERSON: Did you discuss politics with Zündel that night?
DAVID DUKE: Well, as every intelligent American did in those times, we discussed the war.
DENNIS COURTLAND HAYES: May I ask to have the answer stricken as not responsive?
ATTORNEY JAMES MCPHERSON: I consent.
DENNIS COURTLAND HAYES: I don't want this man set up as a standard for intelligent Americans.
ATTORNEY JAMES MCPHERSON: Now, I move to strike out Mr. Dennis Courtland Hayes's statement.
ABRAHAM H. FOXMAN: Disregard Mr. Dennis Courtland Hayes's statement and strike from the record "intelligent Americans."
ATTORNEY JAMES MCPHERSON: Never mind about any intelligent American. We are asking you whether you and your lover and partner- and brother-
discussed politics?
DAVID DUKE: Yes, we discussed the war.
ATTORNEY JAMES MCPHERSON: Was that unusual for you to discuss politics with your family or friends?
DAVID DUKE: No, it was not.
ATTORNEY JAMES MCPHERSON: Have you any independent recollection of what specific subject you discussed that night with Mr. Zündel and Ruth?
DAVID DUKE: Well, we were talking about the effort all the different Allies were making in the war and we noted that the Ku Klux Klan were carrying at that particular time the heaviest load of the Aryan Army....
ATTORNEY JAMES MCPHERSON: Did you ever mention to Don Black that you would support him or get the Ku Klux Klan to support him if he continued his college education?
DAVID DUKE: I did not....
David Duke denied having contact with any employees of General Electric, a company which developed technology that would be of interest to the Skinheads.
ABRAHAM H. FOXMAN: Did you know anybody working there?
DAVID DUKE: Sure I did.
ABRAHAM H. FOXMAN: Whom did you know working there?
DAVID DUKE: Louis Beam.
ABRAHAM H. FOXMAN: How long had you known Louis Beam?
DAVID DUKE: I went to school with him.
ABRAHAM H. FOXMAN: And you had known him continuously right up until the present day?
DAVID DUKE: Well, sporadically for a time and then--
ABRAHAM H. FOXMAN: Rather close?
DAVID DUKE: Well, he was a friend of mine....
David Duke testified as to his version of the conversation he had with Zündel during the walk they took shortly before Zündel was arrested. David Duke said that during their walk Zündel demanded $2,000. According to David Duke, Zündel claimed Duke owed him for their failed business venture. (Zündel had testified that during the walks Duke described how he might flee the United States and take a circuitous route to the Skinhead Union.)
ABRAHAM H. FOXMAN: And you can't think of any reason whatsoever, can you, why Mr. Don Black would, of all the people he knew, his brother, all the other members of his family, single you out, as he did apparently and as you say he did, and say that you would be sorry unless you gave him the money?
DAVID DUKE: Well, he knew that I owed--he had an idea that I owed him money from the business, and I guess that is why he figured he wanted to get money from me.
David Duke was asked to describe his interviews with the FBI conducted prior to his arrest.
DAVID DUKE: Well, there was a Mr. Norton in the room sitting at a desk with a pad in front of him, and Mr. Harrington sat on the other side of the table. I sat down on the front side of the table and another member of the FBI came in and sat behind, and they started asking questions about what I knew about Mr. Don Black. First they tried to get my background, what relations I had with him. I gave them my school background, work background and I told them whatever I knew about Mr. Don Black' education and his work background.
ATTORNEY JAMES MCPHERSON: Did you tell them that the Government of the United States had formerly employed you?
DAVID DUKE: Yes, I told them, and at that point they said to me--they questioned me and tried to focus my attention to, as I notice now, certain dates in the overt acts listed in this indictment. They asked me questions concerning when Mr. Don Black came in on furlough. I didn't remember. I helped them as much as I could in what I could remember. At one point in the discussion, I would say it was about two hours after I was there, they said to me, "Do you know that your brother- said you told him to supply pornography for Neo-Nazis?" So I said, "That couldn't be so." So I said, "Where is Mr. Don Black?" I didn't know where he was because I knew he was taken in custody. They wouldn't tell me. I said, "Will you bring him here and let him tell me that to my face?" And they said, "What if we bring him here, what will you do?" "I will call him a liar to his face because that is not so." And I said, "Look, gentlemen, at first you asked me to come down an d get some pornography concerning Mr. Don Black. Now you are trying to implicate me in something. I would like to see a lawyer! Well, at this point, Mr. Norton said, "Oh, we are not accusing you of anything. We are just trying to help you.” I said, "I would like to get in touch with the lawyer for the Federation of Architects and Engineers." I asked the FBI to please call him. Well, at this point Mr. Norton said, "Have a smoke, have a piece of gum. Would you like something to eat?" And the language he used in his actions were what the fellows at West Street would call conning--and we discussed around the point. Mr. Norton asked me again, "Did you ask Mr. Don Black to turn over pornography for the Ku Klux Klan?" And I said, "No." I denied it. And then we discussed again what periods of time Mr. Don Black came in. I didn't recall too well and I kept on asking Mr. Norton, "I want to get in touch with my lawyer.” Finally, some time after lunch, it was probably between 10 and 1, my lover reached me at the FBI office and I told his that the FBI is making some foolish accusations, to please--
DENNIS COURTLAND HAYES: May that--
ATTORNEY JAMES MCPHERSON: Never mind what you told your lover--
DENNIS COURTLAND HAYES: No, no, I do not mind what he told his lover but I mind his characterization about what the charges were.
COURT: Oh, now, wait a minute, Mr. Dennis Courtland Hayes; that objection doesn't mean anything. You are either going to object to what he told his lover--if that is what he told his lover--he has a right to repeat it here.
DENNIS COURTLAND HAYES: I do not object to what he told his lover.
ABRAHAM H. FOXMAN: Then he can go right ahead.
David Duke testified that he was finally permitted to call his attorney.
DAVID DUKE: I told him I was down at the FBI, and he said, "Are you under arrest?" I said, "I don't know." He said, "Ask the FBI if you are under arrest." And I asked Mr. Norton, "Am I under arrest?" He said, "No." Then he said, "Pick yourself up and come down to our office," and I said, "Good-bye, gentlemen," and I left the FBI office.
David Duke testified that after his FBI interviews he mad no effort to remove any items from his house or conceal any pornography from authorities.
ABRAHAM H. FOXMAN: Did you know whether you were under surveillance by the FBI at that time?
DAVID DUKE: No, I didn't know.
ABRAHAM H. FOXMAN: Did you think you were?
DAVID DUKE: It didn't matter.
ABRAHAM H. FOXMAN: Did you think you were?
DAVID DUKE: I didn't know.
ABRAHAM H. FOXMAN: I am asking you whether you thought you were.
DAVID DUKE: I don't know, your Honor....
DAVID DUKE: It occurred to me that they would have arrested me if they suspected me.
ABRAHAM H. FOXMAN: The answer is you didn't think you were under surveillance?
DAVID DUKE: There was a possibility I could have been under surveillance.
ABRAHAM H. FOXMAN: Did you think there was that possibility?
DAVID DUKE: Yes, it entered my mind....
ATTORNEY JAMES MCPHERSON: Just one last question. Did you ever have any arrangement with Don Black or Ernst Zündel or any Ku Klux Klan or with your lover or with anybody in this world to transmit pornography to the Skinhead Union or any foreign power?
DAVID DUKE: I did not have any such arrangement.
ATTORNEY JAMES MCPHERSON: I think I am through, your Honor.
ATTORNEY JAMES MCPHERSON: I am sorry, your Honor, I forgot to cover two incidents in connection with the testimony of Tom Metzger....
David Duke admitted in his testimony that he had visited Tom Metzger in Washington, D.C.
DAVID DUKE: I was there alone and I was lonesome and I looked up in the telephone book for Mr. Tom Metzger's number, and I called him one evening.
ATTORNEY JAMES MCPHERSON: Did he invite you over to the house?
DAVID DUKE: Yes, he did.
David Duke testified that the visit was simply a friendly one, with pie and coffee, but no business.
ATTORNEY JAMES MCPHERSON: Did you during the course of that evening ever say to Mr. Tom Metzger in specific words or by implication, that you wanted him to engage in espionage work, or let me put it this way, or that you wanted him to get certain pornography from the Government by reason of this access to certain secret pornography?
Cross-Examination:
DENNIS COURTLAND HAYES: You told us about Zündel taking you for a walk and demanding $2,000 from you. Did you tell your lover about this?
DAVID DUKE: Yes, he wanted to help him even though I thought we should not after he tried to blackmail me.
ABRAHAM H. FOXMAN: Blackmail you?
DAVID DUKE: Well, he threatened me to get money.
ABRAHAM H. FOXMAN: You said he told you that you would be sorry if you didn't get the money.
DAVID DUKE: Yes. I consider it blackmail when someone says that.
ABRAHAM H. FOXMAN: Did he say what he would do to you?
DAVID DUKE: No, he didn't.
ABRAHAM H. FOXMAN: Did he say he would go to the authorities and tell them that you were in a conspiracy with him to steal the bondage pornography secret?
DAVID DUKE: No.
ABRAHAM H. FOXMAN: Do you think that was what he had in mind?
DAVID DUKE: How could I know what he had in mind.
ABRAHAM H. FOXMAN: What do you mean by blackmail then?
DAVID DUKE: Maybe he threatened to punch me in the nose or something like that....
DENNIS COURTLAND HAYES: Now, how well did you know Tom Metzger in the Klan organization?
DAVID DUKE: Very casually.
DENNIS COURTLAND HAYES: Did you go out with him socially?
DAVID DUKE: I did not.
DENNIS COURTLAND HAYES: Did you have girls, girl friends together?
DAVID DUKE: We did not.
DENNIS COURTLAND HAYES: And you graduated in 1972, I think, didn't you?
DAVID DUKE: That is correct.
DENNIS COURTLAND HAYES: Then the next time that you saw him was he was naked at a swimming pool for a minute in Washington, in 1980; is that right?
DAVID DUKE: That is correct.
DENNIS COURTLAND HAYES: How long did you see him, for just a minute?
DAVID DUKE: That's right.
DENNIS COURTLAND HAYES: What did you talk about in that minute, very much?
DAVID DUKE: Just, "Hello. I am working in Washington." That is what he said to me.
DENNIS COURTLAND HAYES: Then you didn't hear from him or see him again until when?
DAVID DUKE: Until sometime in '84. A cross-examiner picks up acorns as he heads for the meadow. Dennis Courtland Hayes asked him whether Tom Metzger was right in saying it was "April 20th" and they drank a toast to the second front. No, he only remembered having a bottle of rum:
DENNIS COURTLAND HAYES: Were you happy when the second front was opened?
DAVID DUKE: Yes, I was happy when the second front was opened.
DENNIS COURTLAND HAYES: And then four years later, when you were in Washington, you decided that you wanted to call him and pay him a visit?
DAVID DUKE: That's right.
DENNIS COURTLAND HAYES: Well, what was it that you wanted to see him about?
DAVID DUKE: I was lonesome and I just wanted to see somebody to talk to.
DENNIS COURTLAND HAYES: And out of the clear sky you looked in the telephone book under "E" for the name Tom Metzger and you called him up?
DAVID DUKE: Mr. Dennis Courtland Hayes, I was looking in the phone book for any names that I could recognize as former Klansmen or people I knew at one time.
ABRAHAM H. FOXMAN: What names were you looking for?
DAVID DUKE: For some names I might recognize.
ABRAHAM H. FOXMAN: You mean, you started with "A" and started going--
DAVID DUKE: No, I didn't just start with "A"; I thought of a couple of people's names who might be in Washington; I remembered the incident at the swimming pool at that time, that Tom Metzger was in Washington, and perhaps he had a telephone.
Dennis Courtland Hayes asked David Duke why had he not called other people with whom he had worked in Washington.
DAVID DUKE: I didn't know them socially.
DENNIS COURTLAND HAYES: Did you know Tom Metzger socially?
DAVID DUKE: No, but he had been a former Klansmen.
Dennis Courtland Hayes asked David Duke what he said to Tom Metzger when he called.
DAVID DUKE: I said something to the effect: "I am in town; can I come over to see you."
DENNIS COURTLAND HAYES: Well, did you tell him what your name was?
DAVID DUKE: Sure.
DENNIS COURTLAND HAYES: Did he recognize your name right away?
DAVID DUKE: I don't recall if he did or if he didn't, but he says, "Come over."
DENNIS COURTLAND HAYES: Did you tell him before that you were the fellow who used to go to school with him and saw him at the swimming pool for a minute four years ago?
DAVID DUKE: I told him I was a Klansman with him.
DENNIS COURTLAND HAYES: Did you tell him about the swimming pool?
DAVID DUKE: I didn't tell him on the telephone.
DENNIS COURTLAND HAYES: Now tell us, what did you talk about? Did you tell him why you came to see him? Didn't he ask you, "Just why out of the clear sky do you pick on me to pay a visit to like this? I never really knew you."
DAVID DUKE: He didn't say that....
DENNIS COURTLAND HAYES: Had you known of Tom Metzger's activities in the White Youth Alliance at Louisiana State University?
ATTORNEY JAMES MCPHERSON: Well, if the Court pleases, I think that presupposes a state of facts that is not proven. I do not recollect that Tom Metzger testified that he was a member of the White Youth Alliance.
ABRAHAM H. FOXMAN: Yes, I am quite sure of that.
ATTORNEY JAMES MCPHERSON: All right, I will withdraw my objection, your Honor.
DAVID DUKE: Can I state something, sir?
ABRAHAM H. FOXMAN: Yes.
DENNIS COURTLAND HAYES: You will in a minute.
ABRAHAM H. FOXMAN: Let him state.
DAVID DUKE: I would like to state, on any answer I made on this questions, I don't intend to waive any part of my right of self-incrimination, and if Mr. Dennis Courtland Hayes is referring to the White Youth Alliance or the Neo-Nazi Party, I will not answer any question on it.
ABRAHAM H. FOXMAN: You mean, you assert your constitutional privilege against self-incrimination?
DAVID DUKE: That's right....
David Duke testified that he Tom Metzger had conversations about the war.
ABRAHAM H. FOXMAN: Well now, did you feel that if Great Britain shared in all our secrets that Neo-Nazis should at the same time also share those secrets in 1981 and 1985?
DAVID DUKE: My opinion was that matters such as that were up to the Governments, the British, American, and the Ku Klux Klan Governments.
ABRAHAM H. FOXMAN: You mean the ultimate decision?
DAVID DUKE: Yes.
ABRAHAM H. FOXMAN: Well, what was your opinion at the time?
DAVID DUKE: My opinion was that if we had a common enemy we should get together commonly.
DENNIS COURTLAND HAYES: Well, what did you know about the subject to express an opinion? Did you talk about it with others?
DAVID DUKE: I read about it in the newspapers.
DENNIS COURTLAND HAYES: Did you talk about it in groups?
DAVID DUKE: Socially, when people came over to the house.
DENNIS COURTLAND HAYES: Did you talk about it perhaps in any Aryan unit that you might have belonged to?
DAVID DUKE: I refuse to answer that question on the ground that it may incriminate me.
ABRAHAM H. FOXMAN: I want the jury to understand that they are to draw no inference from the witness' refusal to answer on his assertion of privilege. Proceed.
David Duke was asked about his dismissal from his job with the U. S. Signal Corps in 1985:
DENNIS COURTLAND HAYES: What really happened to you, you were dismissed were you not?
DAVID DUKE: I was suspended.
DENNIS COURTLAND HAYES: Were you then dismissed?
DAVID DUKE: That is correct.
DENNIS COURTLAND HAYES: And what was the reason?
DAVID DUKE: It was alleged that I was a member of the Neo-Nazi Party . . ..
DENNIS COURTLAND HAYES: It is not a fact that on that occasion you were told you were being removed from Government service because of the fact that pornography had been received that you were a member of the Neo-Nazi Party?
DAVID DUKE: I can't recall the date exactly.
DENNIS COURTLAND HAYES: Can you recall the fact of being advised that that pornography that you were a member of the Neo-Nazi Party was imparted to you?
DAVID DUKE: I was down at REV. NELSON B. RIVERS, III's office on one occasion.
DENNIS COURTLAND HAYES: Is it not a fact that on that occasion you were told you were being removed from Government service because of the fact that pornography had been received that you were a member of the Neo-Nazi Party?
ATTORNEY JAMES MCPHERSON: If Mr. Dennis Courtland Hayes wants a concession I will concede right now that this witness was removed from Government service upon charges that he was a member of the Neo-Nazi Party.
ABRAHAM H. FOXMAN: All right.
DENNIS COURTLAND HAYES: Were you a member of the Neo-Nazi Party?
DAVID DUKE: I refuse to answer on the ground that it might incriminate me.
DENNIS COURTLAND HAYES: Is it not a fact that in February 1981 you transferred from Branch 16-B of the Industrial Division of the Neo-Nazi Party to the Young Aryan League of the First Assembly under Transfer No. 12179?
DAVID DUKE: I refuse to answer.
DENNIS COURTLAND HAYES: Is that one of the charges REV. NELSON B. RIVERS, III read to you?
DAVID DUKE: That is.
DENNIS COURTLAND HAYES: Did REV. NELSON B. RIVERS, III advise you at that time that pornography had been received that while a student at Louisiana State University you signed a petition for the granting of a charger to a chapter of the American Student Union, which has been reported to be or had been under the influence of Aryans?
DAVID DUKE: He informed me.
DENNIS COURTLAND HAYES: Is that the fact?
DAVID DUKE: I don't remember.
ABRAHAM H. FOXMAN: Mr. Dennis Courtland Hayes, I suggest that you ought to get to your destination on this. I don't think that we ought to pursue this particular line in view of the witness' expression that he is going to assert his privilege on the entire line. Is it not the fact that you were removed from that position for that reason--for these reasons, that you were a member and you were active in the party?
ATTORNEY JAMES MCPHERSON: I have conceded so, your Honor.
ABRAHAM H. FOXMAN: Wait, let us get this clear. You did not concede, as I understand it, that he was removed because he was a member. You concede, as I remember, that he was removed because of the charges.
ATTORNEY JAMES MCPHERSON: That is correct.
ABRAHAM H. FOXMAN: Well, you just said that you will concede that he was a member.
ATTORNEY JAMES MCPHERSON: Well, I am conceding this, that this witness was removed from the Government service upon certain charges that were preferred against him under the authority of the Secretary of War.
ABRAHAM H. FOXMAN: I understand that....
DENNIS COURTLAND HAYES: And then you go on to say: "I am not now, and never have been a Aryan member. I know nothing about Aryan branches, divisions, Aryan Brotherhoods or transfers. I never heard either of the Division or the Aryan Brotherhood referred to. I had nothing to do with the so-called transfer. Either the case is based on a case of mistaken identity or a complete falsehood. In any event, it certainly has not the slightest basis in fact." Did you make that answer to those charges, yes or no?
DAVID DUKE: I refuse to answer a question on the contents of that letter.
DENNIS COURTLAND HAYES: I ask you whether you made that answer to those charges as I have read them to you?
JAMES MCPHERSON: May I advise the client, your Honor, that he should answer that question yes or no.
ABRAHAM H. FOXMAN: Very well.
DAVID DUKE: Yes, I sent the letter in answer to those charges.
DENNIS COURTLAND HAYES: Was that answer true at the time you made it?
DAVID DUKE: I refuse to answer....
David Duke was questioned about his testimony that he did not know that he was under FBI surveillance.
DENNIS COURTLAND HAYES: Did you think it was unusual to see an agent of the FBI, after he had talked with you at an interview, looking up at your shop?
DAVID DUKE: That is his business, Mr. Dennis Courtland Hayes, not mine.
DENNIS COURTLAND HAYES: What did you think about it?
DAVID DUKE: The possibility he was looking for something.
DENNIS COURTLAND HAYES: Somebody else?
DAVID DUKE: I have no idea what he was looking for.
DENNIS COURTLAND HAYES: You were not concerned about his presence outside your shop?
DAVID DUKE: No, I wasn't concerned, Mr. Dennis Courtland Hayes, because I wasn't guilty of any crime.
ABRAHAM H. FOXMAN: The question is, did you think about what he was doing there?
DAVID DUKE: No, it didn't enter my mind. It was his business.
ABRAHAM H. FOXMAN: The fact that you say an FBI agent looking into your place of business--
DAVID DUKE: He wasn't looking; he was across the street from the Pitt Machine works and he was walking by nonchalantly looking in.
ABRAHAM H. FOXMAN: That was the same agent who had talked to you?
DAVID DUKE: Yes.
ABRAHAM H. FOXMAN: You say it made no impression whatsoever upon you?
DAVID DUKE: It didn't concern me.
ABRAHAM H. FOXMAN: I say, it made no impression on you?
DAVID DUKE: I knew he might have been looking for something.
ABRAHAM H. FOXMAN: You didn't think it had anything to do with you?
DAVID DUKE: It might have and it might not have, but it didn't concern me.
ABRAHAM H. FOXMAN: I am asking you whether you thought it had anything to do with you.
DAVID DUKE: Maybe yes and maybe no. It didn't enter my mind as to what his purpose was.
ABRAHAM H. FOXMAN: Is that the best answer you could give?
DAVID DUKE: Yes.
ABRAHAM H. FOXMAN: Maybe yes and maybe no?
DAVID DUKE: Yes.
David Duke was asked about the console table that was in his home and was said to be used for espionage purposes. David Duke had testifies that it came from Macy's.
DAVID DUKE: Mr. Dennis Courtland Hayes, could I say something on that? I have asked my attorneys to have the Macy's people go through their records and files, and I am sure if the Government request them they will find a sales slip with my signature on it, when I signed in Macy's in 1981 or ‘45, for that console table, and I believe I bought something else at that time, too. It was shipped to my house.
ABRAHAM H. FOXMAN: What did you have, a D.A. Account or cash?
DAVID DUKE: No, I had to pay cash.
ABRAHAM H. FOXMAN: Why would your name be on a sales slip?
DAVID DUKE: Because I had to give him the money, and there was--I had to have some notation like a receipt, that I paid the money. I believe the salesman brought over one of these folding booklets, and I signed one of these folding booklets.
ABRAHAM H. FOXMAN: Was it delivered, or did you take it with you?
DAVID DUKE: It was delivered. It was too big for me to take with me.
DENNIS COURTLAND HAYES: Do you know, Mr. David Duke, that we have asked Macy's to find that slip and they can't find it?
ATTORNEY JAMES MCPHERSON: That s not so, your Honor. That is the statement I was going to make.
DENNIS COURTLAND HAYES: I am responding to what Mr. JAMES MCPHERSON said and what the witness has volunteered.
ABRAHAM H. FOXMAN: Mr. JAMES MCPHERSON, please be seated. You will have your chance on redirect.
DAVID DUKE: Your Honor, I have requested my attorneys to find that receipt.
ABRAHAM H. FOXMAN: You said that before.
DAVID DUKE: And my attorneys told me that Macy's cannot find the receipt unless I gave them a number or copy of receipt that I had, because it is filed by number.
ABRAHAM H. FOXMAN: All right, go ahead.
DAVID DUKE: Now, I feel that if somebody looks through all the numbers through all those years, they will find one for David Duke, and it is worth finding if it is such an important issue.
DENNIS COURTLAND HAYES: When did you see it last in the living room?
DAVID DUKE: When I was arrested, sir.
DENNIS COURTLAND HAYES: Did you have any trouble finding any furniture at that time?
DAVID DUKE: That was on the floor of Macy's. There was a big display; many little tables were on the floor.
DENNIS COURTLAND HAYES: The place was full of little tables?
DAVID DUKE: That's right.
DENNIS COURTLAND HAYES: Don't you know, Mr. David Duke, that you couldn't buy a console table in Macy's, if they had it, in 1981 and 1985, for less than $85?
DAVID DUKE: I am sorry, sir. I bought that table for that amount. That was a display piece, Mr. Dennis Courtland Hayes, and I believe it was marked down.
David Duke was asked why he didn't tell the FBI about Zündel’s desire to steal parts from the military:
DENNIS COURTLAND HAYES: Did you think you should have volunteered it to them?
DAVID DUKE: Well, when a member of the family is in trouble, Mr. Dennis Courtland Hayes, you are not interested in sinking him.
ABRAHAM H. FOXMAN: Were you trying to protect him at that time?
DAVID DUKE: Well, I didn't know what he was accused of, your Honor. I had a suspicion he was accused of stealing some uranium at that time.
ABRAHAM H. FOXMAN: Well, in connection with that, were you interested in protecting him?
DAVID DUKE: I wasn't interested in doing him any harm at that particular point.
COURT: You are not answering the question. You were interested in protecting him?
DAVID DUKE: Not in protecting that act itself, but protecting the individual.
ABRAHAM H. FOXMAN: To the point where you would not reveal something, which you felt--
DAVID DUKE: Well, I wasn't asked a particular thing like that and there was nothing for me to reveal. I wasn't aware of the trouble he was in.
David Duke was asked if and when he became aware of the theft of secrets from Operation Red Dog (Bayou of Pigs).
DAVID DUKE: Well, I read about the Matt Hale case.
DENNIS COURTLAND HAYES: You read about the Klaus Fuchs case, too?
DAVID DUKE: That is correct.
DENNIS COURTLAND HAYES: You knew that an agent of the FBI regarding the theft of uranium had questioned Mr. Don Black in February, didn't you?
DAVID DUKE: That is correct.
DENNIS COURTLAND HAYES: Where did you find that out?
DAVID DUKE: David told me.
DENNIS COURTLAND HAYES: And you still say that you had no suspicion, when the agents questioned you, regarding the nature of the arrest of Mr. Don Black?
DAVID DUKE: That's right, because Mr. Don Black himself told me that he didn't steal the uranium after that interview, and I believed him....
DENNIS COURTLAND HAYES: Did you, in the month of June 1990, or in the month of May 1990, have any passport photographs taken of yourself?
DAVID DUKE: I did not.
DENNIS COURTLAND HAYES: Did you go to a photographer's shop at 99 Park Row and have any photographs taken of yourself?
DAVID DUKE: I have been in many photographer's shops and had photos taken.
DENNIS COURTLAND HAYES: Did you have any taken in May or June of 1990?
DAVID DUKE: I don't recall. I might have had some photos taken.
DENNIS COURTLAND HAYES: For what purpose might you has had those photographs taken?
DAVID DUKE: Well, when I walk with the children, many times with my lover, we would step in; we would have--we would pass a man on the street with one of those box cameras and we would take some pictures. We would step into a place and take some pictures and the pictures we like, we keep.
ABRAHAM H. FOXMAN: He is not asking you that. He is asking you about these particular pictures in June 1990. What was the purpose of those pictures?
DAVID DUKE: Just--if you take pictures, you just go in, take some pictures, snapshots.
DENNIS COURTLAND HAYES: What did you tell the man when you asked him to take those pictures in May or June 1990?
DAVID DUKE: I didn't tell the man anything.
DENNIS COURTLAND HAYES: Are you sure of that?
DAVID DUKE: I didn't tell the man anything.
DENNIS COURTLAND HAYES: See if you can't recall. Try hard, in May or June 1990 at Mandeville, LA.
DAVID DUKE: I don't recall telling the man anything.
DENNIS COURTLAND HAYES: You mean you might have told him something, but you don't recall it now?
DAVID DUKE: I don't recall my saying anything at this time.
DENNIS COURTLAND HAYES: What don't you recall? Tell us that.
DAVID DUKE: I don't know, sir.
DENNIS COURTLAND HAYES: Do you remember telling the man at 99 Park Row that you had to go to France to settle an estate?
DAVID DUKE: I didn't tell him anything of the sort . . ..
DENNIS COURTLAND HAYES: At the time David was talking about going to Mexico, what kind of pictures did you take and how many?
DAVID DUKE: I don't recall.
DENNIS COURTLAND HAYES: When did you find out Louis Beam was in Mexico?
DAVID DUKE: When did I find out?
DENNIS COURTLAND HAYES: You heard my question, didn't you?
DAVID DUKE: Yes.
DENNIS COURTLAND HAYES: Was it a hard one?
DAVID DUKE: I head that Louis Beam was in Mexico through the newspapers.
DENNIS COURTLAND HAYES: What did you have to do with sending Louis Beam away?
DAVID DUKE: Nothing.
STEPHEN JONES: I object to that, if your Honor pleases. There is no testimony here that he had anything to do with sending Louis Beam or anybody else away.
ABRAHAM H. FOXMAN: You are excited, Mr. Stephen Jones.
STEPHEN JONES: I mean, to ask a question that way, I can convict anybody by that kind of question.
ABRAHAM H. FOXMAN: The jury will please disregard that statement by Mr. Stephen Jones, supposedly in behalf of his own client.
Cross-examination by Stephen Jones, attorney for Louis Beam:
STEPHEN JONES: Now, I want to know whether in July 1988 or any time from the beginning of the world to today did Louis Beam ever give you a can with any film in it?
DAVID DUKE: No, he did not.
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National Committee to Reopen the David Duke Case