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Re: Topic 2 -- Brad Nock, 08:59:47 02/15/02 Fri
The Athenians had the right to be proud about some things, but they weren't the best, like they thought they were. They had certain accomplishments that contributed to their "greatness" such as The Acropolis and their expertise in performing drama (literature). Even with their accomplishments, the Athenians were most definately not the best. They didn't write down their laws, so the people were depended upon to remember them and could make up new ones and ignore others. Women, slaves, and metics weren't allowed to participate in politics even though they accounted for the majority of the population. Also, the government was mainly made up of aristocrats who had biased opinions and corrupted it. In conclusion, the Atheninas were great in some ways, but they weren't the city that Pericles spoke of in his speech.
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Re: Topic 2 -- Kelly Sargente, 09:00:17 02/15/02 Fri
I believe that the Athenians did have the right to be proud of their civilization. In that period of time their intellectual intelligence was superior for their time. The Athenian architecture was beautiful. It had been well thought out in order to last long. The Acropolis is one of the most famous pieces of architecture in the world and it is still around today for people to see.Their philosophies are still around today, still causing many to seek and answer and better understanding of such matters. Even the Athenian government was progressing. The officials were being paid and given more responsibility of the people.
Their soliders were trained hard, and were incredibly advanced also. They fought tough wars. Therefore, in conclusion, Athenians did have the right to be proud of their civilization.
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Re: Topic 2 -- george, 09:01:08 02/15/02 Fri
Pericles and the Athenians community had the right to feel so proud about ahtens because The athenian government was truly a democracy it was not just one man making all the rules. Pericles was just a spokesman for the athenians.Athens is one of the most refined and respected city-states. Some city-states force there citzens into a specific profession while athen's citizens had a large choice. Although Pericles clames that athenian military training was superior I belive that sparta had a far superior military training system. Athens is a place that loves art and that is somewhat modern. He claims that Athens is the school of the hellas and this is mostly true in that they were one of the most modern city-states of its time. To sum it up i say that athenian citizens had every right to feel so proud considering how advanced the civilization they lived in was.
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Re: Topic 2 -- Nicole Sawyer, 09:12:07 02/15/02 Fri
Yes, i feel that the Athenians at that point had the right to feel as proud as Pericles led us to believe. I feel that they took what was given to them and used it to the fullest. They began with almost nothing, and made it into a whole city of wealth and prosperity. The Athenians were wealthy, hard working, people who also knew how to have fun. They tried to prevent poverty among their people. From what it seems, they worked as a community. They had a stable govenment, and a strong militia. The Athenians had a lot of things going for them, and they worked hard to maintain them. That is something to be proud of.
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Re: Topic 2 -- Nicole Sawyer, 09:12:49 02/15/02 Fri
Yes, i feel that the Athenians at that point had the right to feel as proud as Pericles led us to believe. I feel that they took what was given to them and used it to the fullest. They began with almost nothing, and made it into a whole city of wealth and prosperity. The Athenians were wealthy, hard working, people who also knew how to have fun. They tried to prevent poverty among their people. From what it seems, they worked as a community. They had a stable govenment, and a strong militia. The Athenians had a lot of things going for them, and they worked hard to maintain them. That is something to be proud of.
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Re: Topic 2 -- THE Tim Carson, 09:14:14 02/15/02 Fri
At the time of Pericles'(Dave said that posessive was right) "Funeral Oration", The two major cities in Greece were Sparta, and Athens. If by chance, the Spartans aquired a man such as Pericles, capable of thought, the same type of boasting would have been possible for the Spartans. Although the Spartan society is not known for their asstuteness and great intellectual discoveries, they had plenty to be proud of in the area of war.
Athens on the other hand, was not such a beligerent millitarily based community. Athens was cented more around different trades, arts, and ways of thinking. It was the launch-pad of Greek philosophy. Pericles had reason to brag about Athens, because it was the most artisticly and mentally advanced society known to exist at that time. Pericles had the right to brag within the areas of Athenian prowress. However, The comment Pericles made about the Athenian army, was less than true, because Sparta had the best army for sure. I wonder if Pericles would take that comment back if the Spartan army marched on Athens...heh heh heh... what a day that would have been......
Love,
Tim
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Re: Topic 2 -- Dave Gately, 09:14:24 02/15/02 Fri
Pericles had every right to be proud of Athens. The Athenian government in itself was something to be proud of. The Athenian cvilisation was almost flawless, for instance: "But while the law secures equal justice to all alike in their private disputes, the claim of excellence is also recognized. When a citizen is in any way distinguished, he is preferred to the public service, not as a matter of privilege, but as the reward of merit," said Pericles in "The Funeral Oration for National Heroes." Pericles listed numerous reasons as to why Athens' government epitomizes Democracy. This city-state was extremely advanced. Obviously this government plan was well thought out and took many great minds to configure. Of course one would boast about their government if everything were to run smoothly. This city-state's stability and discipline was unmeasurable. "We rely not upon management or trickery, but upon our own hearts and hands," said Pericles in "The Funeral Oration for National Heroes." This quote summarizes the foundation of the Athenian government; they were not worried about what everyone else was doing, they did things their own way and it worked.
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Re: Topic 2 -- Colin Martin, 09:15:21 02/15/02 Fri
Yes I think that they do have the right to feel as proud as they are about Athens. Since there were few cities back then, they had little competition to be the best. Pericles probably did not spend too much time in the other cities. He most likely grew up in Athens makeing it seem the best to him. If you think about the place where you spent most of your life, you are probably attached to it and think that it is better than most other places that you visit. He had pride in where he was from and where he lives. He has every right to think that Athens is the best. If I want to say that the town that i live in is the besty, I would be allowed to aswell.
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Re: Topic 2 -- Brad Reed, 05:06:09 02/21/02 Thu
I beleive that Pericles had every right to "brag" about his wonderfull city of Athens because the Athinians had an "Ideal" way of life. I say tihs because in the handout, it says that the democracy that Athens had in the Antient times, was a peacefull city-state and should have been an example to others as how to act. Also I beleive that another reason that the Athinians desearved to brag is they were advanced, mentaly, compared to the other City-States. i say this because many of our mthmatical operations, formulas, and scientific modles/theorms came from Pilosiphers living in Athens. I would like to add that the Athinians, as smart and peacefull as they are, were not a peolpe to anger because the had a large and powerfull malitia, and were freindly with the Spartains. Lastly the Athinians were a hard working peoples, always learning and making the best out of the land that the had, no mater how roky and hilly.
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Re: Topic 2 -- Ryan Maclachlan, 17:36:00 02/23/02 Sat
As with most everyone else here I agree that Pericles was correct in some aspects of the Athenian greatness, but a bit to enthusiastic about other topics.
First of all as many others have mentioned, the military of Athens was not as magnificent as that of Sparta. Sparta devoted the entire life of any worthy (not killed babies or slaves) citizen to a life in their military. Athens' military was not the focal point of male Athenians. This is both good and bad because this gave Athens a better chance to advance as they did. However, the Athenian army didn't have the same Spartan might. The Athenians had a navy though, which was superior to that of the Spartans, which does allow Pericles partial credit in Athens military system. The reason that their navy was better than Sparta's was because Sparta didn't really have much focus on a navy, just a strong army. The Spartans eventually became fed up with the snotty Athenians, both sides made unanswered demands and war broke out. In 404B.C. the Athens went under Spartan rule.
As far as education is concerned, Athens held a far more superior postion over every other city-state. In Sparta, boys would learn the Iliad, but the reason for this was for war purposes. Everything in Sparta revolved around the military. The Athenians did not have such knowledge of war related topics, but they did learn elementrary reading, comprehensive physical training, and a great deal of music. Writing and learning about the works of Homer were also included. However, these were only for the wealthy boys. Teachers were rather lowlifes of this society though -- most being slaves due to being to old or weak to be a normal citizen. However, their contributions to the youth made them respected people. The studies of geometry and philosophy were for later in life as adults, not children.
As derogatory as I may sound about the Athenians, there is no doubt that intellectually they were far more advanced than any other city-state in Greece. All the famous mathematicians (Euclid), philosophers (Plato, Aristotle, and Socrates), and scientists (Hippocrates) were from Athens. The Athenians had developed their own beautiful form of architecture, drama, literature, and sculpture. Even more impressive is the origins of Democracy which were started from both their government and Plato's "The Republic". Even after their conquer, they were still the intellectual superpower of Greece, and they were also favored by the Romans for their smarts, which were foolishly not used for fighting technology.
The Athenians have every right to be proud of their city-state and think that their military is superior to everyone esle's but just keep in mind that they were later conquered by the Spartans.
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Re: Topic 2 -- Chris Zegel, 13:11:58 02/24/02 Sun
The Athenians had the right to be proud of their civilization. Just as any other nation or racial group might have, the Athenians possessed a certain level of ethnocentrism, and this led to some pride among Athenians in general. The Athenians were in fact a great people, developing a higher level of government, as well as accomplishing many other tasks to make a civilization great. However, they were not alone in being a great civilization. Sparta was another area that held much power in ancient times, and although it had very different strengths and weakenesses, its power was equal, if not greater, than Athens' control. The denziens of Athens, while being proud of their homeland, should have recognized other city-states as wonderful places as well. Places such as Sparta may have resented the fact that Athens considered it above all other city-states, and this is probably the case, considering Sparta eventually conquered Athens. Pericles and other Athenians had the right to be proud of their home, but should have recognized the power and slpendor of other city-states as well, and perhaps kept some of their pride to themselves, to "keep the peace", so to speak.
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Re: Topic 2 -- Jimmy McCumber, 14:52:45 02/24/02 Sun
----------While Pericles may have exaggerated in some of his claims, I believe he has a right to be proud of Athens. In examining his boasts, he usually gives sufficient evidence to support each one, and while his view is of course biased, it seems accurate. He also does not pretend Athens is perfect, just a really great place.
----------Pericles says that Athens is an example to its neighbors, not a copycat of them. He praises the Athenian form of government, but admits that the rich receive more benefits than the poor. Pericles calls Athens a relaxing place, which is certainly justified. Athens was the beginning of many modern sports and even led the formation of the first Olympics.
----------Many people object to Pericles claim that Athens has the best army, instead awarding that to Sparta. But Pericles does not exactly call his army the best. He says that the Athenian military training is: “In many respects superior to that of our adversaries. They from early youth are always undergoing laborious exercises which are to make them brave, while we live at ease and yet are equally ready to face the perils which they face.” The “They” clearly means the Spartans. Pericles is not necessarily saying that his army is better, but that a well-rounded and happy life is superior to the full military life of Sparta. I have to agree with him.
----------To sum up his speech, Pericles claims that Athens is the school of Hellas, which seems correct. Athens became by far the most famous and respected of the early Greek cities, and is now the capital of modern-day Greece.
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