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Subject: Unnecessary exposure


Author:
Carol
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Date Posted: 16:45:20 10/21/09 Wed

I doubt if anyone would be troubled by exposure during healthcare, provided it was essential to the procedure.

I recall an older man who described what took place when he went for a gall bladder operation some years ago. He was 45 at the time.

The night before the surgery had to shave him for the operation. She told him she would shave him from just below his armpits to a few inches below his navel. Then she slid his sheet down to mid-thigh and folded his gown up to his shoulders. She then did exactly what she had described, soaping him and shaving the entire area, stopping well above his pubic region.

He felt aroused to be uncovered, of course, but he was too anxious about the operation to say anything at the time. Later, when he remembered the incident, he wondered why the girl exposed as much as she did. That much exposure was clearly not necessary to the procedure, which lasted about twenty minutes.

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Replies:
[> Subject: How About Unnecessary "Guests"?


Author:
Fran
[Edit]

Date Posted: 07:09:59 10/22/09 Thu

Of course his exposure unnecessary. It's too bad he didn't ask her at the time what that was all about.

Another situation that is equally unnecessary is the presence or the dropping in of an extra person or two
during a procedure like the one you mentioned. There have been a number of posts on that subject.

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[> Subject: Old Cartoon About Doctors


Author:
Tom
[Edit]

Date Posted: 16:49:06 10/23/09 Fri

There was an old cartoon in a magazine some years ago about doctors exposing patients unnecessarily. It was a single panel cartoon showing a young woman, completely nude, just stepping out from a curtained cubicle.

The doctor is standing next to his examination table and is obviously waiting for her. He says, "Ok, Miss Soandso, now let's have a look at that hang-nail that's been hurting you".

Although we've had a number of posts here and on other boards about nurses and aides exposing people more than necessary, we have never had a post about doctors doing so.
This cartoon was the only incident of doctors stepping over that line, and it was just a joke. Go figure.

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[> [> Subject: You're Right, Doctors Don't Do That.


Author:
Barbara
[Edit]

Date Posted: 07:48:32 10/24/09 Sat

On boards like this we often have posts describing nurses and aides who have done things like that. Some of the posts have been from women who admit doing this themselves, or say they know other co-workers who do things like that. Who knows whether any of that is true.

Still, we have never had any posts describing doctors
doing anything like that. We have had posts about doctors in some foreign countries requiring people to take everything off for examinations, but that was standard practice in the locations where it took place.

That's probably what made the cartoon so humorous, since this sort of thing just does not happen.

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[> [> [> Subject: Remembering A Strep Throat Incident


Author:
Ned
[Edit]

Date Posted: 08:10:37 10/26/09 Mon

Some years ago, while we were on vacation in a U.S. city, my wife, 24 at the time, came down with a sore throat we thought it might be strep. I drive her to a hospital clinic to have it checked out. She expected just a strep test.

She did have strep as the test indicated and she she came out with a prescription for an antibiotic. As we drove to a drugstore she looked kind of flushed to me, but she also had a half-smile as though she was thinking of something funny but was trying to hide it, if I'm being clear here.

When I was eventually able to get her to share the humor with me she told me the doctor she saw was a young guy, probably a resident physician. After looking in her throat and swabbing it for the test, he suddenly took out his stethoscope and asked her to remove her shirt, so she did.

After he started using his stethoscope on her chest he stopped and asked her to remove her bra, too, which she did. He was red as a beet and seemed nervous as he continued with his stethoscope, even stuttering a bit as he told her there was no problems except for her throat.

She knew he had made her take off more than was absolutely necessary, but she was not angry. She was more amused than anything else, and enjoyed seeing how he was blushing and stammering as he spoke to her.

We both chuckled when we read the post above and recalled what had happened so many years ago.

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[> [> [> Subject: Re: You're Right, Doctors Don't Do That.


Author:
JDP
[Edit]

Date Posted: 17:41:39 10/29/09 Thu

Several years ago I took my wife to the emergency room due to a severe sinus infection. We were waiting in our draped off area,when we heard a young woman being taken to the area next to ours. About 5 minutes later a doctor arrived and asked her what the problem was,so she started to explain to the doctor her symptoms. The doctor instructed her to remove her top,she said ok,do you want me to remove my bottom as well,at which he said yes! My wife was in pain but upon hearing this could not control her laughter. We couldn't see anyhting but it was obvious that the doctor was takeing advantage of the situation.

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[> [> [> [> Subject: JDP, Please Give Us More Information About The Girl


Author:
Sara
[Edit]

Date Posted: 07:46:59 10/30/09 Fri

JDP, you left the key element out of your post. You failed to tell us what symptoms you heard the girl describe to the doctor. What she had wrong with her would make all the difference in the world.

For instance, if she said she had stubbed her toe and it was causing a lot of pain, it would be unnecessary for her to take anything off except her shoes and socks. But if she told the doctor she had a very itchy or painful rash all over he body it would be necessary for her to take he clothes off.

Since you did not tell us what her symptoms were, we have to assume that the doctor decided that it was necessary for the girl to get undressed.

Please, if you can recall what she told the doctor, tell us what that was. Then we can understand your point better.

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[> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: JDP, Please Give Us More Information About The Girl


Author:
JDP
[Edit]

Date Posted: 19:11:03 11/02/09 Mon

The young female came in complaining of being dizzy!

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[> Subject: Re: Unnecessary exposure


Author:
tom
[Edit]

Date Posted: 11:48:11 10/26/09 Mon

My experience is that very little unnecessary exposure occurs in real life. Sure, it may happen but it is not the norm.

Last week I had to have some minor surgery on my finger. This was done as an outpatient. The surgery lasted about 10 minutes. I was give a sedative but it wore off about 15 minutes after the surgery was over. When I entered the prep area the nurse asked me to undress but I could leave my shorts on. I stripped, put on the gown and hospital "socks" and relaxed on the stretcher. They started an IV and the nurses were very nice and informative. A few hours later I was back at home. If they had told me to take off my shorts I would have complied. No big deal as far as I'm concerned.

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[> [> Subject: Weren't You Over-Undressed?


Author:
Barry
[Edit]

Date Posted: 12:08:23 10/26/09 Mon

Even though you say you didn't mind, it does seem that you were undressed to a greater extent than necessary. After all, it was your finger they were working on.

That seems a lot like the girl in the cartoon described in this thread, above. I certainly would have asked why I had to take everything off, except my underpants for a procedure on my finger.

I have heard that people having a knee or foot operation often have to take everything off, which is also puzzling.

Did they explain anything to you?

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[> Subject: Re: Unnecessary exposure


Author:
Clay
[Edit]

Date Posted: 02:47:54 10/27/09 Tue

Nurses and aides do it because they know they can. No matter how ridiculous it may be the patients almost always comply without question. Since many don't make you strip to nothing we know that it isn't necessary for those that do. Power and perversity, that's all.

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[> Subject: They Don't See What Difference It Makes


Author:
Sara
[Edit]

Date Posted: 06:52:05 10/27/09 Tue

A woman wrote some time ago about being allowed to stay in the cubicle while her husband was being shaved for surgery.
She was absolutely stunned when the young female technician
peeled off his sheet and removed his gown leaving him on the cot without a stitch for the entire time.

She shaved the man from below his armpits to just above his knees, including everything in between. The wife felt that exposing him completely for the entire time was not at all necessary. She could have worked her way down, uncovering, shaving, and re-covering, as she progressed.

When I mentioned this post to my sister, who was an aide years ago when she was in college, she had no idea what I was talking about. She said it made no difference how the girl did it because she would be seeing everything anyhow.

She said that as she recalled, some of the girls she worked with did it that way because it was a lot more efficient without having to adjust the sheets repeatedly.

No matter what I said, I could not convince here that it does make a big difference to many, or even most, patients.
It would certainly make a difference to me, but maybe I'm being too prudish. How would you feel about it?

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[> [> Subject: Re: They Don't See What Difference It Makes


Author:
old med staff
[Edit]

Date Posted: 20:57:11 10/27/09 Tue

Ask your sister the following: when she goes to the GYN, and the doc does both a breast exam and a GYN exam, if she just strips everything off and hops on the table with no gown or sheet for covering. I doubt it. But, as she said, "made (makes)no difference how the girl (doc)did it because she (he) would be seeing everything anyhow." Interesting how all of a sudden things seem very different when the genders are reversed.

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[> Subject: She May Have Thought What She Did Was Necessary


Author:
Karen
[Edit]

Date Posted: 21:17:12 10/27/09 Tue

Your idea of necessary may not be the same as the person doing your procedure. In the case mentioned, the girl may have been taught to remove all coverings over a wider area than the patient thought was necessary.

In case of doctors, nurses, and physicians' assistants doing complete physicals, there are many different schools, some in foreign countries, where the examination technique may differ. Some, but not many, have learned to require the patient to wear nothing at all for a complete examination.
Others allow gowns or even underwear.

Why sweat it? Let the caregivers do it their way.

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[> [> Subject: Re: She May Have Thought What She Did Was Necessary


Author:
Simon
[Edit]

Date Posted: 21:19:59 10/27/09 Tue

I do agree, after a hernia operation a few years back, when i went to my doctors to have the stitches removed i was sent into see the nurse. And although the stitches were well above my pubic region she had me lower my trousers and underwear to my knees. She took just a few seconds removing the stitches and the next couple of minutes examining my penis and scrotum and asking me questions about the effect the operation had had on them.

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[> [> Subject: Re: She May Have Thought What She Did Was Necessary


Author:
rk
[Edit]

Date Posted: 01:27:20 10/28/09 Wed

Karen: How about caregivers communicate with patients. How about caregivers climb or crawl out of their boxes and learn different ways of doing things -- because people are different and have different comfort levels. What needs to be done needs to be done. That doesn't mean there's only one way to do it and that patients are objects that just need repairing. There are people, human beings attached to those bodies and parts that need fixing.

"Why sweat it? Let the caregivers do it their way.

It's not about sweating it. It's about respect and dignity.

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[> [> [> Subject: Re: She May Have Thought What She Did Was Necessary


Author:
MikeT
[Edit]

Date Posted: 23:48:34 10/30/09 Fri

...How about caregivers climb or crawl out of their boxes and learn different ways of doing things...

...It's not about sweating it. It's about respect and dignity...

RK, seriously... I don't know what issues you had when you were growing up, but wow. Healthcare isn't about respect and dignity, and caregivers don't need to climb or crawl out of their boxes as you say.

Healthcare is about medicine, and illness, and diagnosis, healing, curing and recovery. A person who is covered up in a parka on the exam table with no skin exposed during a cursory exam is far more likely to have something missed by the doctor than somebody who (god forbid!) is on the exam table mostly naked.

It's paranoia like this which leads to our modern day brief physicals because the doctor is more concerned about preventing a lawsuit from somebody like you for possibly looking at their groin for 1/10 of a second longer than they absolutely have to, quite possibly missing something life threatening in the process in their haste.

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[> [> [> [> Subject: Re: She May Have Thought What She Did Was Necessary


Author:
old med staff
[Edit]

Date Posted: 21:47:47 10/31/09 Sat

I agree that "Healthcare is about medicine, and illness, and diagnosis, healing, curing and recovery" but I disagree when you say that "Healthcare isn't about respect and dignity". I think it is about both. A healthcare professional can do both. Non-professionals either do one or the other or neither.

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[> Subject: What If She THINKS She's Doing What Is Necessary?


Author:
Gall Bladder Guy
[Edit]

Date Posted: 16:42:25 10/29/09 Thu

Back in the 80s, I had my gall bladder removed the old way, with an incision just below my right rib-cage. These days they use laparoscopy, and only two holes are made and no incision is required. Almost no shaving is NECESSARY.

The night before, I was shaved from the shoulders down to the top of my knee-caps, except for my armpits, by a girl who looked to be no more than twenty. It was arousing, of course, and I assumed she shaved what was NECESSARY.

One week later, I was in my surgeon's office for my follow-up visit and she asked me how I was feeling. I told her I was doing fine with my recovery, except for the awful itch which was driving me crazy. Puzzled, she asked me to show her what was itching, so I lowered my pants.

She was surprised when she saw how bald I was down there, and how irritated the whole area was as the hair started to grow back. She said, "Wow, someone got carried away with the razor!" She told me all that was NECESSARY was that my hair be removed from my nipple-line to just below my navel.

Clearly, there was a mix-up. The young aide somehow thought my shave had to be much more extensive than NECESSARY. But it was me who paid the price, the itching, for her error.

In all fairness to the girl, when I asked a nurse about this years later she told me aides are not the decision-makers. Her supervisor, usually an OR supervisor-nurse, assigns these jobs and tells the aide exactly what parts are to be shaved. So the girl was only doing what her boss told her was NECESSARY. We'll never know why she had the girl shave me so much more than the doctor expected.

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[> [> Subject: The Young Lady Followed The Procedure Manual


Author:
Barbara
[Edit]

Date Posted: 17:06:03 10/29/09 Thu

Every facility has a procedure manual that the follow. In the case of surgical preps, they don't customize each shave in the manual. The preps are divided into broad categories, like, abdominal, chest, flank, back, lower limb, upper limb, head & neck, genitalia, and so forth.

You probably won't get to see a manual, but in one of the big book stores, in the nursing section, you may find a training book for aides or nursing assistants. In there, look up surgical, or pre-op surgical care. There you will see a line-diagram with the areas to be prepped shaded in. The diagram for "abdominal" shows the entire area from just under the armpits to the middle of the thighs.

That's what the aide who shaved him was undoubtedly sent in to do an "abdominal" prep. She shaved exactly what the manual told her should be shaved, so she did it correctly.

If a doctor wants a different area prepped, he or she is supposed to issue specific instructions to over-ride the manual. Otherwise, the manual's diagrams are followed.
The man's doctor should have made her preferences clear.
There was no mix-up. The aide did what was required of her.

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[> [> [> Subject: Re: The Young Lady Followed The Procedure Manual


Author:
old med staff
[Edit]

Date Posted: 12:00:22 10/30/09 Fri

I agree with Barbara. I used to be an orderly in the early 1970s & had to do the preps for all of the male patients. I still remember a few of them. The abdominal prep (mentioned by Barbara) was from the nipples to mid-thigh. The chest prep was from top of neck to start of pubic hair. The pelvic prep was from belly button to mid-thigh including scrotum. The rectal prep was from the small of the back to mid-thigh including all hair around the anus (rough going if the patient had hemorrhoids protruding outside.) There was a TUR prep that was the pelvic and the rectal prep combined. Then, there were bone preps that not only included shaving, but also washing are with anti-bacterial soap, drying with steril towels, and then wrapping the are with sterile towels. Shaving of the head for brain surgery was done in the O.R. at time of surgery. Anything different from above had to be part of the doctor's prep order. For example, the doc may order only an area the size of a half-dollar be shaved around a cyst on the side of the head.

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[> [> [> [> Subject: Thanks For Confirming What I Said About Preps


Author:
Barbara
[Edit]

Date Posted: 12:16:51 10/30/09 Fri

old med Staff, I appreciate your taking the time to confirm for the doubters what I said about how preps are ordered.
Maybe, with two of us describing how it works, they will accept what we both independently said.

You also confirmed what I said about the fact that the manual's prescribed method can be adjusted if the surgeon
takes the time to specify something different. It works both ways. Sometimes a surgeon wants less of a prep than the manual dictates, but sometimes the surgeon wants more.
There was a surgeon I recall who wanted the entire body shaved, except for the head, not just the chest prep, for any of his thoracic operations.

The doctor who told the man that "someone got carried away"
was the one who made the error. The surgeon should have changed the prep order if she wanted less than the full abdominal prep of the patient. The girl did the standard abdominal prep. She was not told anything different.

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[> Subject: Re: Unnecessary exposure


Author:
rk
[Edit]

Date Posted: 13:05:32 10/30/09 Fri

I don't think most reasonable people are questioning what you describe as the procedure. I'm certainly not. That's the way it was. What I am questioning is the poor communication involved. Why isn't the patient informed of these pre-op procedures? Why are not patients asked if they would prefer same gender aide to do the shaving? I'm talking about prearranged, scheduled procedures where these kinds of accommodations can be arranged. Why is it just assumed that it's okay for a young girl to shave an older man? Let's say we have 10 nurses or cna's on duty. One is a male. A young female needs to be preop shaving in intimate areas. Which nurse will get assigned the job? Let's say the nurses just rotate patients randomly. Convince me that, if that male nurse happens to be randomly assigned that female patient he'll actually do the job. Convince me that even if he is, that, if the female asks for a female to do the job she'll be denied that choice.
That's what this is about as far as I'm concerned.

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[> [> Subject: Do you really think we are that stupid?


Author:
Long time sufferer
[Edit]

Date Posted: 05:37:17 10/31/09 Sat

"Convince me that, if that male nurse happens to be randomly assigned that female patient he'll actually do the job. Convince me that even if he is, that, if the female asks for a female to do the job she'll be denied that choice."

No one could convince you of anything. You know everything already. So get a life and shutup & stop wasting our time.

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[> Subject: Those Who Shave Seem To Have The Say-so


Author:
Memories
[Edit]

Date Posted: 11:16:14 10/31/09 Sat

A few years back we had a brief debate here about how much area should be shaved in preparation for abdominal surgery.
Some nurses and aides chimed in, and what they said may surprise some of us.

The posters eventually ended up discussing whether or not the scrotum should be included in the prep. Some of the nurses and aides said they always shave the scrotum because it has been their experience that post-operative infections are fewer if they do that.

Another one said that unless they are short of time, they prefer to shave the scrotum just to be as thorough as possible. Others agreed that if the prep is going down to mid-thigh, it makes no sense to skip over the scrotum.
Only one aide or nurse said the scrotum is difficult and time-consuming to include, so she does it very seldom.

The telling point in the discussion, and the big surprise for me, was the between-the-lines revelation that these women have the authority to decide about shaving there.

So never mind saying that a mistake was made by the girl who prepped the man who complained above about itching.
She decided, for whatever reason, to shave the entire area down there, including the scrotum.

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[> [> Subject: Surpised, But They Have Some Good Points


Author:
Elaine
[Edit]

Date Posted: 11:18:22 10/31/09 Sat

I was surprised to learn that the person who does the prep has some leeway about exactly what she should shave. But she undoubtedly has a good reason for whatever she decides.

Why even discuss it? Let the nurse, aide, or technician do what they think is best for the patient at the time.

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[> [> [> Subject: Let Them Do Their Jobs Without Micro-Managing


Author:
Leah
[Edit]

Date Posted: 11:21:13 10/31/09 Sat

The nurses and aides assigned to prep a patient do have to exercise their own judgement about the extent of the shave.
Some surgeons have very specific preferences so the prep must be done the way he/she wants it done. Other surgeons let the staff take care of it.

The staff wants to be sure the surgeon can do his/her job smoothly. There is nothing more embarrassing than to have a surgeon stand back and call for an OR nurse to finish the prep right then and there.

To make sure this does not happen, there is a tendency to sometimes prep a wider area than the patient might expect.
This results in patients believing that the nurse or aide shaved more of him than was really necessary. We see posts with that complaint on this board and others.

Why not let the nurses and aides do their jobs based on their own judgement and experience? The main concern of everyone involved is a suiccessful operation without infection of the site later. That's what the prep is for, so let them do what they think is best.

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[> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Let Them Do Their Jobs Without Micro-Managing


Author:
Tom
[Edit]

Date Posted: 11:23:27 10/31/09 Sat

The Doctor did all my shaving when I was out and very little. I asked her in her office how much she needed shaved and she said don't worry I'll do it and only where I need to because the scraped skin can get infected.

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[> [> Subject: The Manuals & Diagrams Cover The Entire Area


Author:
Sara
[Edit]

Date Posted: 13:04:24 10/31/09 Sat

The diagrams mentioned above show that an abdominal prep
covers the area from the nipple-line to mid-thigh. The scrotum is within that shaded area, so it should be shaved.

Sometimes the nurse or aide decides not to include the scrotum in the shave for reasons of their own. It might be skipped if the incision is up near the ribs, as in a gallbladder operation or another procedure above the navel.
But it surely should be shaved for any procedure lower than that, like a hernia of the lower abdomen or an appendectomy.

Generally, they should shave the scrotum every time, since it is part of the abdominal prep standard procedure, and most of them do include it. They really have no authority to change the procedure, but as we have seen above, some of them make the decision to omit the scrotum, anyhow.

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[> [> [> Subject: Re: The Manuals & Diagrams Cover The Entire Area


Author:
Al C.
[Edit]

Date Posted: 00:31:10 11/01/09 Sun

A few years ago I was getting shaved for a hernia exam by a young woman who was quite pretty but I suspect new to the job. As she was shaving my pubic area and scrotum she handled my penis throughout the process. Not only that, she handled it exactly as if she intended to masturbate it, with her fingers all around it. If you can believe it, she did all this fairly innocently. Somehow I got the impression that was how she treated a boyfriend's penis and she was just used to holding them that way. She was as I said pretty but I would guess no more than average intelligence. I got an erection from the process, which did not seems to faze her one bit! In fact it was as if she expected it. On the other hand she took no obvious pleasure from it, nor do I think she was concealing any. And she wasn't the least irritated by it either. It was just as if she expected me to get an erection from the get-go and was handling my penis as she would any erect penis she was familiar enough with to masturbate. She never did that to me of course. Just left it standing high and proud as she wiped me off afterwards and draped the sheet back over my "tent'. Never said a word about it either. It was like it happened that way every time she shaved a guy, and for all I know, it did.

It was a remarkable and noteworthy experience.

I gather the diagrams and notes they use to teach women how to do shaving like this do not mention erections or penises and how to hold or not hold them. So the women make up their own rules based on their own experiences and go about their business. I think that young woman entered my hospital room with the firm idea that I would get an erection during the procedure. And I did. Sort of like the old saying -- "10,000 years of human experience proves conclusively that beating a tom-tom when the sun sets will cause it to rise again the next morning."

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[> Subject: Re: Unnecessary exposure


Author:
rk
[Edit]

Date Posted: 14:32:35 10/31/09 Sat

"No one could convince you of anything. You know everything already. So get a life and shutup & stop wasting our time."

Gee, long time sufferer -- let's pretend I really care what you think. I do have a life, and you and your opinions play no role in it.

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[> [> Subject: Re: Unnecessary exposure


Author:
Wainwright to rk
[Edit]

Date Posted: 19:33:20 10/31/09 Sat

Do you ever get the feeling that you're not welcome on this board; can't you take a hint?!

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[> Subject: Al C., How Could The Aide Have Done A Better Job?


Author:
Barbara
[Edit]

Date Posted: 05:40:54 11/01/09 Sun

Al C., you said you thought the young lady who was shaving you handled your penis in a manner that was different than you had expected. How would you have expected her to handle your penis, given the fact that she was assigned to do your preoperative shave and had to reach all of the area?

I am not disagreeing with you, but I am curious to know if there is a way the young lady could have done this job in a way that would be more suitable from your point of view. If any nurse or aide happens to read your comments they just might learn a way to make their male patients more comfortable.

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[> [> Subject: Re: Al C., How Could The Aide Have Done A Better Job?


Author:
Al C.
[Edit]

Date Posted: 08:36:09 11/01/09 Sun

Barbara, I'm not sure what to say. Assuming you have experience handling penises at some points in your life, aren't you aware of how different techniques would tend to increase or decrease chances for an erection? For my part, the only thing I can think of is to handle it as little as possible. The more touching = more stimulation = greater likelihood. So, maybe just with the fingertips, or even indirectly with a towel. On the other hand I realize that too much of that would likely get in the way of doing the job, so I don't know what I would recommend. Plus she was a quite pretty girl, doe-eyed and well groomed, so I wouldn't want her to change in that department. And please let me add, I was not unhappy about what happened. Slightly embarrassed at first, but when I realized she was not the brightest kid in the class I sort of felt compassion for her more than anything else. She had a look of determination on her face, and it was a little screwed up as if she was concentrating, likely on not cutting me. (I certainly would not want her to forget that!) As I said, I think she was new at it. And anyway, after she was gone it seemed humorous. I told a couple of guys about it months later and we all had a few laughs. One guy thought she did it intentionally, but I don't. I really think she was just doing her job as efficiently as she could and holding my penis the ways she did was what she knew and it made it easier for her.

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[> [> Subject: Re: Al C., How Could The Aide Have Done A Better Job?


Author:
Steve M
[Edit]

Date Posted: 00:11:31 11/07/09 Sat

In my experience, during examinations the penis is usually handled by grasping between the thumb and forefinger of one hand. That is how the nurse who shaved me for surgery did it, but the sensation of her thumb pressing on the sensitive underside of the penis was physically stimulating, and I quickly became fully erect.

I think this is a normal reaction and almost inevitable in that situation.

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[> Subject: The Issue Is What Is Shaved, Not Who Does It


Author:
Karen
[Edit]

Date Posted: 13:34:50 11/01/09 Sun

The sex of the nurses and aides assigned to various tasks is not the issue, is it? When it comes to shaving, nearly all the complaints I've seen here have more to do with what area is shaved, not who does it.

Although most prefer opposite-sex, a few prefer same sex caregivers.
Some people don't have a preference, either way. We've seen all sides commenting in this thread.

I'm sure that if a person felt very strongly about the sex of his or her caregivers, it is very likely that some arrangements can be made if a request is made with enough lead-time to make the arrangements.

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[> [> Subject: What About How The Aides and Techs Feel?


Author:
Former Aide
[Edit]

Date Posted: 17:21:53 11/01/09 Sun

All we see on this and other boards is how embarrassed some male patients feel when a female aide or technician shaves them for surgery. On the other hand, some guys say they don't mind at all. Notice that either way it is all about the male's feelings, and nobody else's.

But what about the females' feelings? Believe it or not, some woman find it embarrassing when they happen to be assigned to shave a male patient. The posters here act as though these women have no feelings on the matter at all, but many of them surely do. Some of them dread being assigned to shave a male.

The point is, not everyone is pleased by what goes on in a health care situation, but everyone involved has to do what they have to do in order to get the work done so the patient can get back to his normal life again.

So let's agree that even if nobody is fully satisfied with everything that takes place in health care, we all have feelings, the staff included, believe it or not.

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[> [> Subject: Re: The Issue Is What Is Shaved, Not Who Does It


Author:
Rodger to Former Aid
[Edit]

Date Posted: 17:05:30 11/02/09 Mon

OK, so you want us guys who a laid out naked in front of a fully dressed female, to be concerned about her feelings? What you're saying is that this poor helpless female should not be forced to look at some guy's nasty genitals.
What a crock of crap. You need to get a job in a chicken plant slinging chicken guts. We certainly don't need someone with your attitude working with patients.

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[> [> Subject: Re: The Issue Is What Is Shaved, Not Who Does It


Author:
Lynn
[Edit]

Date Posted: 16:28:22 11/03/09 Tue

Showing respect should be the default procedure. Patients shouldn't have to insist on respect, it should always be given to them automatically. They should assume that most people prefer an opposite-sex nurse or tech to do something so intimate. Of course the patient should also be able to request same-sex nurses if they're uncomfortable with someone of the opposite sex.

Unfortunately many patients don't even know it's going to happen until it's too late. They'll either not realize what's happening until the caretaker pulls the gown open to do it or they wake up and are surprised to see they are completely shaved. Very, very unethical. They should ALWAYS be given a choice.

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[> Subject: Re: Unnecessary exposure


Author:
Jack
[Edit]

Date Posted: 21:18:16 11/02/09 Mon

This is a true incident that happened last Valentines Day when I drove myself to the local ER due to waves of excruciating abdominal pain. For a saturday afternoon, the waiting room was not that crowded and the triage nurse gave my symptoms priority over the few earlier arrivals.

Upon being escorted to the nurses station, I was shocked to see that the place was packed with patients in gowns on gurneys lining both sides of the hallways with many visitors standing around them.

The nurse assigned to me approached with a gown and a urine cup and said that I was to remove everything, put on the gown and showed me to the only empty gurney available right outside the nurses station. I asked her if she expected me to undress in the hallway. She made a remark that if I was shy, to get over it as there was no place to change in private! She left me with the gown in hand and a cup for a urine sample. Fortunately I was able to find a bathroom at the other end of the corridor to make my change and returned to my gurney after failing to provide the urine sample.

Unfortunately, I was not able to secure the open back on the gown and had to hold it closed with one hand while carrying my clothes in the other. Eventually, the nurse returned and asked for the sample. After failing to produce it, she said that I should try again and if unsuccessful, she would have to get the sample the hard way. I assumed that she meant a cath would be inserted and I made my way back to the bathroom to try again with the same amount of success as before.

Upon my return, a young lady, who was dressed in the same tan over brown colors as the nursing staff asked if I needed some help with tying the gown to which I gladly accepted and thanked her for taking the time to assist. As she was tying it off, an old woman seated 3 ft away remarked that I looked good in a dress!!!

After she heard my nurse's veiled threat concerning my providing a urine sample, this angel returned and asked if I would like some ice water. I accepted and remarked that it would have been nice for my own nurse to have offered. She laughed and I suddely realized that for a nurse she was always standing across the hallway near an old man with an oxygen mask on. When I asked her if she was part of the nursing staff, she pointed to the old man and said that he was her father and she was not a nurse or employed there!!!

Needless to say I was both thankful but somewhat embarrassed to have a stranger see my bare backside while fastening my gown due to an apparently overworked nursing staff.

The whole stay in the ER has more details but suffice it to say, should anyone have been put through a three ring exposure circus like this?

I can't believe that hospitals operate like this and although my assigned nurse tried to be funny in her demands, I was in intermittent pain and did not appreciate the jokes at my expense. Thankfully, the water worked and I was able to eventually give the urine sample but that was another story in itself.

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[> Subject: Roger, You Entirely Missed My Point, So I'll Explain


Author:
Former Aide
[Edit]

Date Posted: 22:26:42 11/02/09 Mon

Roger, I was not asking anyone to feel sorry for the aides who are embarrassed to take care male patients. My point was that everyone involved in the health care scene has some problems with it.

Some are real problems, some are not, but we should all put that aside and get the care or give the care, whatever applied, and make the patient well.

In other words, swallow all the complaints and get on with the goal to return patients to their normal lives ASAP.

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[> [> Subject: Re: Roger, You Entirely Missed My Point, So I'll Explain


Author:
Walt
[Edit]

Date Posted: 13:05:08 11/03/09 Tue

Spoken like an experienced professional! I agree with you, completely, with a note to keep in mind the dignity of the patient(s) to the extent allowed by what has to be done in the way of examination & treatment.

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[> Subject: Re: Unnecessary exposure


Author:
rk
[Edit]

Date Posted: 23:40:10 11/03/09 Tue

"Although most prefer opposite-sex, a few prefer same sex caregivers. Some people don't have a preference, either way."

"Patients shouldn't have to insist on respect, it should always be given to them automatically. They should assume that most people prefer an opposite-sex nurse or tech to do something so intimate."

The first statement is by Karen. The second is by Lynn.
I just want to make sure I understand what they're saying. Both seem to be saying that most women prefer males to do intimate procedures and exams (like shaving) on them. They're using the neutral term "person" or "patient," so I assume they mean both men and women. So, to sum up, am I correct in that you two are saying most men prefer female intimate care and most women prefer males for intimate care? Do you, Lynn and Karen, prefer male nurses do do intimate care on you? In other words, if you could choose, would you choose the male nurse?

Former Aide makes a fair point: "So let's agree that even if nobody is fully satisfied with everything that takes place in health care, we all have feelings, the staff included, believe it or not." I agree with you. Sometimes we forget that everyone's feelings are involved. But the focus needs to be on the patient. The patient has enough to worry about without feeling responsible for the feelings of the caregiver. On the other hand, caregivers are indeed responsible for concern for patient feelings. Caregivers need to deal with their feelings themselves, and if they can't deal with them, they need to consider why they're doing what they're doing.

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[> [> Subject: You Already Know The Answer To That


Author:
Susan
[Edit]

Date Posted: 06:15:05 11/04/09 Wed

Of course you know the answer. Female patients, nearly all of them, prefer female care givers for intimate procedures, ut this refers only to nurses and aides doing the care. Oddly enough, women still seem to prefer male gynecologists.

This is evidenced by a federal court case in California in which a male nurse was denied a job in a hospital's ob-gyn department. The hospital argued that female patients will not accept intimate care from a male nurse.

The male nurse's attorneys argued that most women had male gynecologists, but the judge didn't buy that as a reason to force the hospital to hire male nurses in that department.
The judge happened to be female herself. She decided in the hospital's favor, agreeing that women do not want care from male nurses even if the women's physician is a male.

Unfortunately, there was no indication in the news report on this case that any former female patients were called to testify, so we'll never know how the hospital was able to prove its assertion that women do not accept intimate care from male nurses.

I wish some women would respond here and tell us how they feel about receiving such care from male nurses and aides.
Let's hope the women addressed by rk, above, will respond to his questions.

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[> [> [> Subject: Re: You Already Know The Answer To That


Author:
jean the frenchie
[Edit]

Date Posted: 04:30:44 11/06/09 Fri

I do not want to speak instead of women but I am convinced that "Susan" is right about what women prefers in genders of medical persons

they obviously prefer women as technicians, aids, nurses and it is the same for some men, not all of course, myself I prefer also women nurses than male nurses if I need some cares, even intimate cares, and the same for technicians, aids or medics secretaries ...

and I am not surprised that some women prefer also male doctors as gynecologists.

For me, it is depending on my health issue but I prefer very often to be examined by a woman doctor, so it is not true to think that it is less comfortable to be examined by persons of the opposite gender!

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[> [> Subject: Re: Unnecessary exposure


Author:
Karen
[Edit]

Date Posted: 18:14:08 11/05/09 Thu

I prefer to be treated by a male nurse/aide/technician. That, of course, goes for male gynecologists or other types of doctors, too.

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[> [> [> Subject: Re: Unnecessary exposure


Author:
Vera
[Edit]

Date Posted: 05:35:58 11/06/09 Fri

Me too. But do you know why?

For me I think I like their added attention. Or maybe it just feels better.

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[> [> Subject: Karen And Vera, Could It Be A "Frisson"?


Author:
Observer
[Edit]

Date Posted: 06:44:51 11/06/09 Fri

Back in October, a poster named Vicki said it best. She said she experiences a "frisson" of sexual energy when she is nude with a male care giver. Her point was that even in a case of innocent nudity, there can be a fleeting feeling that passes through a person even in an innocent situation.

That's a great word. I looked up "frisson" and found that it means "a sudden passing excitement, a shiver or shudder of emotion, a chill, a quiver, a thrill".

Have either of you ever experienced a frisson during a healthcare procedure administered by the opposite sex? I have. The event was still innocent, but the frisson was definitely there at the beginning.

Maybe that's why you both prefer males taking care of you.
Just a thought.

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[> [> [> Subject: Re: Karen And Vera, Could It Be A "Frisson"?


Author:
Robert1012
[Edit]

Date Posted: 10:36:19 11/06/09 Fri

-my experiences going to the dr/clinic-I too feel a closeness to my dr-(female and married) and her staff and tech nurses-(all female's and married)--((frission-a new one--I like the sound of it))--and yes I do get excited during the examination's--she always say's it is a normal reaction-she is a very pretty girl-and has said even her famale patients get a little excited as well-I prefer her examining me than a male dr-I have been to male dr in the past-(civilian and military)-but have always requested and searched for the female drs--seems easier to talk to and she is seems more concerned with your overall health and well being.

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[> [> Subject: Re: Unnecessary exposure


Author:
Lynn
[Edit]

Date Posted: 09:19:24 11/07/09 Sat

I feel more comfortable with a male caregiver, especially when it comes to intimate procedures.

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[> [> [> Subject: Re: Unnecessary exposure


Author:
Steve M.
[Edit]

Date Posted: 09:30:36 11/07/09 Sat

For Lynn, or any other women who feels more comfortable with a male caregiver: Have you ever had a male caregiver that was not a doctor? Would you really be ok with undergoing an intimate procedure with a male nurse or technician? Ever had an experience like that? Why would you prefer a male?

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[> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Unnecessary exposure


Author:
Rodger
[Edit]

Date Posted: 16:09:06 11/07/09 Sat

I don't do massage professionally anymore, but when I did, most of my female clients would strip fully naked without a drape.
I always asked if female customers if they wanted their breasts massaged and they never, ever refused.

I had a few very hot customers, but most were not, and I did have a few requests for a more intimate massage.

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[> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Unnecessary exposure


Author:
Millie
[Edit]

Date Posted: 02:32:13 11/08/09 Sun

Rodger, how long ago did you do massage? What part of the country if in the US (I have a theory that liking being undraped is a regional thing).

Was there much of a difference in ages of those who preferred to be undraped vs. those who did? How young were your youngest female clients? What were the typical ages?

What kind of intimate massage, exactly, did you provide?

Thanks!

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[> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Unnecessary exposure -oops


Author:
Millie
[Edit]

Date Posted: 02:33:51 11/08/09 Sun

the second sentence corrected --

"Was there much of a difference in ages of those who preferred to be undraped vs. those who did not? How young were your youngest female clients? What were their typical ages?

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[> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Unnecessary exposure


Author:
Lynn to Steve
[Edit]

Date Posted: 12:10:22 11/08/09 Sun

The reason I prefer a male caregiver is because I'm straight.

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[> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Unnecessary exposure


Author:
Brad Pitt
[Edit]

Date Posted: 18:32:42 11/08/09 Sun

The reason I prefer a male caregiver is because I'm gay.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Unnecessary exposure


Author:
Puzzled to Brad Pitt
[Edit]

Date Posted: 23:06:20 11/08/09 Sun

I don't understand the connection between you being happy, and preferring a male caregiver; please elaborate?!

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[> Subject: Re: Unnecessary exposure


Author:
Shaving in the 21st century
[Edit]

Date Posted: 17:19:02 11/10/09 Tue

If you check several sites on medical shaving you will find out the less shaving the better for infection reasons and usually the doctor does it right before the operation when you are out and they use clippers not razors. Check out MODERN SITES FOR MEDICAL HAIR CUTTING.

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[> [> Subject: Re: Unnecessary exposure


Author:
Walt
[Edit]

Date Posted: 17:10:10 11/11/09 Wed

Let's see, here are my experiences with shaving:

1957 - age 6 - the whole chest shaved in room while I was in 'my' bed, probably the night before the surgery.

1983 & 1989 - surgery in pubic area & someone did it after I was 'out'; area shaved was the minimum to do what they had to do.

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[> [> [> Subject: Re: Unnecessary exposure


Author:
Paul
[Edit]

Date Posted: 03:49:13 11/17/09 Tue

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[> Subject: Re: Unnecessary exposure


Author:
Leah
[Edit]

Date Posted: 03:44:53 11/17/09 Tue

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