Continuing a discussion re: Lebanon/Israel -- Notes from Zarahemla Political Forum

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Date Posted: 15:40:34 08/27/06 Sun
Author: Chuck in ND
Subject: Continuing a discussion re: Lebanon/Israel

There was quite a discussion on another board regarding the current conflict with Lebanon. However the moderator of that board has asks that there be no political discussions and so out of deference to the moderator I invited them to bring the discussion over here.

I hope my friends from the other board will join us here and I hope that all the long-time ZNote-ers will give them a hearty welcome (and join in the discussion :D)

There are two posts that I would like to address. First this one:

I'm at a loss on how Israel has been commtting crimes "historically" seeing that the country has only exsisted from the late 40's (and if I'm remembering my history wrong here, please forgive me ).

Israel was set up by the UN to provide a place for the Jews to return to after WW2...

The biggest problem lies with the fact that Lebanon refuses to acknowledge that Israel is a country.

And that is all Israel wants...validation from every country (including Lebanon which wants it back as their own) that they are a country...

I would urge you to reread the entire thread to understand all the terrorism and crimes that Israel has committed. Between the early 1900's and the start of WWII Zionists routinely used terrorism to convince the world to establish a nation of Israel. They massacred entire villages, bombed and assassinated British government officials and disrupted peaceful life until the British finally capitulated and voila'--a new nation was born. (Who says terrorism doesn't work?)

In the 1980's, Israel stepped into the middle of the Lebanese civil war. Ariel Sharon oversaw the massacre of thousands of Lebanese in the Sabra and Shatila refugee camps. Armed Isreali soldiers stood guard at the gates of the refugee camps to prohibit anyone from fleeing while Lebanese Christian soldiers went on a 3-day orgy or rape and murder, not even sparing women, children or invalids.

Currently Israel is building a wall into Palestinian territory. They say the wall is for security--fine, they need security, build the wall in ISRAEL. Israel is detroying Palestinian farms, schools, hospitals and homes in order to build this wall yards and sometimes MILES inside Palestinian territory.

Then there are the hundreds of Palestinian children shot by Isreali soldiers every year. Just one case illustrates the brutality: a 13yo girl walking home from school, shot 17 times. The soldier found it great sport to continue shooting point blank as she struggled to take cover. During his trial he said he would have done the same if the child had been 3yrs old. The soldier was acquitted.

This is just a fraction of the atrocities Israel commits with little or no condemnation coming from the US.

Yes, Israel should be recognized but it should also behave as a civilized nation.

Now for the next post that needs answering, I will insert my comments:

So, let me get this straight: According to you, we are basing our foreign policy on Biblical data. Wasn't the Constitution based on Biblical principles? Hasn't steered us wrong yet.

I said that we are basing our foriegn policy on Biblical prophecies, prophecies that no 3 people can agree what they mean. So our foriegn policy is based on one version of what all those prophecies mean. In contrast the Constitution is based on clearly defined principles--thou shalt not kill, government is to defend innocent life, etc--that everyone has agreed with for centuries.

What you are missing, Chuck, is that it is the evil and conspiring men here. You condemn evil no matter who is doing it. The return of the Jews to Israel was foretold. If there was no other reason for the UN to exist on the planet except to make that happen, so be it.

You betcha--evil is evil regardless of who commits it. The prophecy was that GOD would restore Israel. The State of Israel was created by the UN--a body based on godless, humanistic principles.

As it happens, America is the promised land as long as we keep our covenant with God. Israel too, is a promised land, as is any other nation that keeps their promises to God. Does the phrase 'strengthen Zion in her stakes and borders mean anything?'

Yes, if the US is a righteous nation, we do not need to rely on bombs and armies to preserve us--God will preserve and protect His righteous people. Ditto Israel. (I refer you to Pres. Kimball's talk on this very subject: The False Gods We Worship)

But what covenant of evil is it that demands unbelievers to be wiped out and how evil is it to respond by saying 'No, you will not do that?'

Not sure what you mean by "covenant of evil", but this thing in Lebanon has NOTHING to do with imposing religious belief.

We can agree that this goes back to the Bible. Muslims believe that Ishmael is the birthright child and Jews believe it was Isaac. Actually, it was Christ. So when both sides can accept Him as their Redeemer, the Son of God, and when they can understand that they are entitled to all the blessings of that covenant, they will stop fighting. The blessing are for all. That is also what is meant by being a Zion people.

As to the State of Israel not being the covenant state of God, neither is Islam.

You're right--all of these are nations among equals. The Arab/Muslim states have just as much a right to exist as the state of Israel. Yet Isreal has stolen Palestinian territory that was NOT granted by the UN charter creating the State of Israel. Israel took this land by force--the 6-Day War. Israel forcibly removed Palestinians from land that was theirs. Israel is currently building a wall inside Palestinian territory, destroying homes, businesses and farms in the process. If a Palestinian lives on the "wrong side" of the fence, he cannot go to work on his farm or business if it is on the other side of the wall. They do all this without ever offering a dime of recompense.

And I do not see that you can even acknowledge any good that Israel has done for the area. Up until the early 20th century, Palestine was a backwater.

First, I have never subscribed to the idea that "the ends justify the means." Israel has modernized the region, but Palestine was by no stretch of the imagination a "backwater". It had an established culture, language and government.

Once the Zionist Jews started to come back and reclaim the land, it became fruitful from their hard work. Why shouldn't the Lord bless those who work if it wasn't part of His plan? And up until the 1948 war, they co existed peacefully with the Arabs who were there.

You're right--prior to the formation of Israel and having their property siezed, Palestinian Arabs and Jews co-existed peacefully. But the Zionists (a separate group from Palestinians Jews) did not want peaceful co-existence. They wanted it all, for themselves, no Arabs allowed. When they got it all(by UN charter) they confiscated the homes, farms and businesses of Palestinian Arabs, never giving them any financial recompense.

And most of those Jews were from America, where principles of the Constitution were what they grew up with.

Actually most of them were from Germany and Russia and were rabid Communists.

In Isaiah, he mentions the word of the Lord coming from both the New Jerusalam and the law of the land from the old.

Hm. I think Israel is more in line with what the Lord had in mind that Hezbollah. Not only that, with reference to the binding of wounds and healing, Hezbollah stated that they are in charge of distributing aid and that they would trash anything that came from the US and the UK. Just my two cents and I am outta here.

Again, wonderful prophecies and I look forward to their fulfillment. But we need to be careful about saying that it is fulfilled in the State of Israel. Isaiah says that this is the LORD'S doing and I just don't see the Lord's hand in all the mayhem, misery and terror.

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My whole point here is -- Chuck in ND, 15:43:50 08/27/06 Sun