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Date Posted: 14:39:05 12/30/06 Sat
Author: Gay Subguns haters (http://216.22.2.74/cgi-local/ffa2.cgi?noframes)
Subject: Second Amendment Gun Shop's presents
In reply to: Mr.Pippy Lang 's message, "Nimbusters Neo-Nazi Homo Agenda" on 14:36:02 12/30/06 Sat

http://216.22.2.74/cgi-local/ffa2.cgi?noframes--No words of wisdom here. Nothing to add at all, I guess, just venting a bit, it's an open forum and I usually just try to help answer questions etc... Since this all blew up, I have tried to post some things, trying to say what I am thinking, but it keeps turning into primordial, brimstone rants.... damaging to all, helpful to none, so I exersize my delete key and try not to do more harm.

I am just plain disgusted by what appears to have happened here. I mean, things were OK, I bought one of these because it is fun and was legal to play with. Just a hoser for the range, tossed a John's Guns suppressed 10-22 in it, and we all loved it for range play. We'd finish a .gov demo, M2HB, MK19, Miniguns, the LMO twins, all kinds of professional stuff, then bring out the little Akins hoser.... everyone loved it. We do serious gun biz stuff, like a lot of people reading this. We find that most of our .gov people like to shoot recreationally as well, and I will frequently bring a Stoner or a Colt Thompson, or now the Akins suppressed to a range. It was fun, and cool, and just a pleasure to shoot.

They had FTB letters saying the principle was ok. I read them. I checked on them. It all looked copascetic to me. I figured there were going to be problems in the future... but you know, this was legal stuff, and it was going to be done by someone, so why not these guys- they self financed, they waited until they had the beta test done, they waited until they had product on the shelf to ship- no "deposit financing" here. They had the letters that this was OK. There were about 100 units or so out there in Beta testing, I think- I don't know that for sure... but they were out for a year or so, right? How come ATF wasn't rescinding letters with 100 guys out shooting these? Possibly because no one was rubbing their face in it? No one was trying to force a confrontation.

I knew this was too much fun, and too accurate, to not raise eyebrows, and I figured that eventually we would be seeing a few thousand units out there, and perhaps ATF FTB looking at it and saying "Whoa"... this thing works too well at simulating MG fire, let's get another look... then, like in 79 and 81 etc, a ruling might come out, or a new definition, and there would be some grandfathering of existing units and maybe legal wording changed... and if they tried to rescind the approval, there would be a company financially strong enough to contest that rescission, with a large enough customer base, to protest and legally challenge it. By the book, through the channels, with everyone knowing what was up- ATF, FTB, Akins, the buyers, everyone knowing that there was some wording that would either get changed or not, a new ruling... something with everyone working it right.

So now, through unintended consequences on the behalf of what appears to be a small group of guys who wanted to hasten a confrontation with FTB for their own reasons, the Akins Group is the unasked sacrificial lamb. They now HAVE to pay the freight, without having had time to recover. It was like our "Friends" here just plain shot the Akins horse while it was standing at the gate waiting to race....

Like I said, I am disgusted. I know just about everyone on every side of this, and can't fathom why anyone would do this. You can bet that none of these guys who apparently all knew each other and discussed sending these in to FTB, you can bet they didn't ask MY opinion ahead of time, they would have gotten an earful of MYOFB.... And, I am not really sure exactly who did what, but there seem to be five or six guys who were planning on sending these in to FTB for a determination immediately on getting them. That's the rumor mill. Anyone know if it's completely true? We know that one guy did, and he has said there were others he spoke with before hand.... On second thought, I don't want to know right now, I am too pissed off.

Is FTB in need of a procedures manual- you betcha. One that we can all see and understand. They need more personnel and more training. They need help from budget... Is more accountability needed? Damn straight. What about 300 cubic feet of previous determination letters? Well, ATF needs funding to bring in contractors that can sort this out and computerize it, then get down to the biz of modernizing and making a cohesive, comprehensive guideline set. Imagine if we had computer access to the content of all of those letters... not that it's too likely, but at least there would be a linear logic path on many issues.

Anyone think that better communication and a clearer path is the likely outcome of this present drama? Or will it just be a mess for the people who have to clean it up....

God save us from the crusaders who are willing to spend other people's lives, finances, and emotional energy on their own agendas.....

Y'all know what? I am promising Tom and Bill and Dorothy something right now. That is, no matter what this plays out at, you don't owe me any refund. If my unit turns into a post sample, fine. If it gets turned in to ATF, fine. As a matter of fact, I will pledge $100 to your legal fund if you need to start one. Not trying to get anyone else going, I am just trying to express my feelings on this.

I am disgusted with the unthinking behaviour of some... how much damage they have done by being willful and stupid about what they did. My prayers are with you guys. I know the acid in the stomach feeling, don't envy you that. I hope y'all can get some good sleep, I know you have good lawyers, I know that ATF isn't running people down on this so that everyone can just work this through.

But maybe, just maybe, some of you crusaders out there will simply sacrifice your own damn hides for the cause, instead of someone else's. No one asked you to do this.... in my book, y'all own this one. Suck it up and take responsibility, or go collect stamps or coins or cars or something... before you do even more damage with more unintended consequences....

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Replies:

Subguns Hater Gay adventures Hk 91 -- Robert Filus (http://216.22.2.74/cgi-local/ffa2.cgi?noframes), 14:46:17 12/30/06 Sat

http://www.hillary.org/hc/Hillary_Clinton_Forum_1207_chat1.cgi -- Fubar rising (Hillary.Org), 06:50:16 05/08/07 Tue