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Date Posted: 00:24:01 07/11/05 Mon
Author: all
Subject: responses
In reply to: Araninda 's message, "Episode of the Week. . .Inside" on 00:00:56 07/11/05 Mon

At the risk of having my face bitten off, I have to admit I did not really like the Mac in "What If". My heart just bled for Harm. She was soo flippant, hard nosed and determined to be as cruel as she could be. How did she get engaged to Farrow before their divorce was even signed?? She sounded so bitter. I cannot imagine them acting this way after the "seven and a half" The Harm and Mac of season ten have waited too long and will just be MORE ready. Am I a hopeless shipper? Guilty as charged! I will give it a 3 -the fortune cookie - I think Mac was uncomfortable to find that Harm had the same fortune and was not in a space to consider it, unlike Harm who was more than ready - yet.(NT)-- can j - now ducking for cover, 21:47:00 07/08/05 Fri

But you must remember this wasn�t Mac. It was what Harm thought might have happened if they had gotten together. Also if you watch at least for me much of what she was saying was to cover how upset she really was. Watch when she turns back to take the photo album when Harm isn�t looking or when she is looking at the photos. You can see how much she still loves him and is sadden by what is happening. Sometimes we put on a facade so the world doesn�t see how unhappy we really are. (NT) -- Hope, 21:54:21 07/08/05 Fri

and once again, she goes flying off into someone elses arms - Harm had been caught this way before. (NT) -- can j, 21:58:41 07/08/05 Fri

No she doesn't. This is all in Harm's mind. Oh and he was having so much fun with it. This episode was wonderful, fun, and romantic. If you don't like Mac in it, then you don't like the way Harm sees her. To me, he was exaggerating in a poor me way, but not in a serious or mean way. (NT) -- Cece, 22:06:53 07/08/05 Fri

If you take it for what it was, a spoof for My Gal Friday, it was great!!! I didn't want to analyze it, just enjoy it for what it was. Doesn't Harm do Cary Grant well? (NT) -- judi, 23:10:57 07/08/05 Fri

Another thing to consider is that in our own fantasies, we never play the bad guy or the person in the wrong. And we are always witty and good with the instant comebacks. That's why I loved this. Harm made up a scenario where he gets his girl in the end. But first she has to find out that she loves him. (NT) -- Cece (this ep makes me so happy.), 22:17:01 07/09/05 Sat

1) I give it a 4. It was a nice change of pace in a very angst filled second half of S9. 2) I think Farrow out of all the men Harm knew of in her life he respected the most and felt was a good guy Webb was to real and he knew wasn�t good for Mac. Not sure why not a new guy maybe just easier to picture her with someone he already knew. 3) I think this was his worry if he had taken the chance in Sydney. He felt he wasn�t ready then and he would have driven Mac to being bitter and wanting a divorce. Maybe mirroring a little what was happening in their real relationship. But also showing that he hadn�t given up but was realizing he needed to let her go and if it was meant to be she would come back. 4) I don�t think it would have turned out this way. I think Harm underestimated himself and Mac. Yes they would have had problems but they weren�t that young and immature. Also just because Mac got transferred out doesn�t mean she wouldn�t have gotten something just as good that she loved doing besides JAG. Or maybe even Harm would have found something else and he could have transferred out. 5) I don�t think at this point in Mac�s life after the year she was having that she wanted to think about the road not taken. It would have brought up to many regrets. She was trying to pretend life was good with Webb and that she didn�t need to wonder about that. What I didn�t like was bringing in Meredith. I mean Harm knew something happened to break them up so why dream this. Was he sad they had broken up because he thought they were meant to be? I liked Varise and Sturgis. I would have liked to see more of them together. She brought out a happier side in him. I think this was the beginning of Harm wanting in on Mac�s life and not to just be on the outside, leading up to what he said on the porch at the dining out. And why he was willing to give her the time she needed. I found it interesting that everyone had left JAG but him. I wonder why he thought that? (NT)-- Hope, 21:50:37 07/08/05 Fri

Love your thoughts, Hope - it gives a whole different slant for me. (NT) -- can j, 21:56:31 07/08/05 Fri

Good question, Hope. Why did Harm see everyone leaving Jag except him? (NT) -- Araninda, 21:56:40 07/08/05 Fri

Im bowing to you,Hope. Excellent and fair-balanced views. I enjoyed this ep.because Im LOL which was so rarely done in Jag and I love the faces of Harm,Mac in court and including Corbin Bersen and John Wesly Shipp.LOL! (NT) -- T2, 22:09:51 07/08/05 Fri

I know some fans watch WI and other eps like they're in the shrink office overanalyzing everything. Not in my case,sure I think later on but I just enjoy it for what it is and I laugh a lot too.I love this ep.because it gave me hope as a Harm and Mac shipper.I give it 5 stars and it only showcased the great chemistry of HAE and MAE. (NT)-- T2, 22:00:09 07/08/05 Fri

Actually who knows if TG was still alive it could have been Mic too instead of Farrow. Like I said some fans overanalyze but since I love "His Girl Friday" and "Adam's Rib" it made me think of Harm and Mac right away in WI. (NT) -- T2, 22:02:00 07/08/05 Fri

I thought it was great. I loved the all the funny lines from the episode: Harm: My point is we can blame others for our predicaments but we make our own beds" Mac: "Objection your honor he didn't make the bed in two years!" Bud " When the going gets hot Bud gets in the tub!" and the judge was hilarious. I think this was meant to be a funny non-serious episode. I also loved all the little hints at previous episodes (NT) -- jagnut, 22:05:31 07/08/05 Fri

This ep was a delight to watch. The chemistry between Harm and Mac was fun to watch. I agree the actors seem to be really enjoying what they were doing. Farrow was an interesting choice, I'm not sure why Harm saw Mac with him. (NT) -- Shell, 22:20:06 07/08/05 Fri

Opening myself to very serious fire, I think the cast had a *great* time doing this one. And actually, I think that we see HAE a lot more than Harm in the "fantasy" portions of the ep. When it's Harm sitting around the restaurant table, it's Harm. When it's the fantasy, gee, it seems to me to be the far more playful person that I've seen in interviews with HAE. Just a thought. (NT) -- clr, 22:11:38 07/08/05 Fri

Did anyone notice in the beginning of the episode when they did the scene in his office, his kuwait ribbon is upside down? (NT) -- LtCmdrFlygirl, 12:45:53 07/09/05 Sat
It was caused by the intensity in the office -- the ribbon thudded & landed upside down. . .LOL! (NT) -- Araninda, 12:57:32 07/09/05 Sat

"I'm gonna kick your butt!!!" Bite me I love you!!!!! I love this pic and I loved this scene! (NT) -- mkim Thanks Hope, 22:37:11 07/08/05 Fri

1) I give it a 5, one of my favourite episodes! 2) Why not Webb? I don't think Harm had much faith in Mac and Webb's relationship, like he didn't have much faith in her's with Mic. Farrow , at least, was a good man. Why a man for Mac? Cuz, like AU-Harm said to AU-Mac in this episode, she has a pattern of repeating her mistakes, and Mac has a history of going for the wrong guy for the wrong reasons. 3) I think Harm knew that he wasn't ready for commitment in Sydney, and if he had, he/they would have managed to mess up. I found the "childless-line" interesting. Maybe Harm hadn't felt ready to become a father yet, and Mac wanted children? I don't think AU-Harm did much to save their marriage before Mac told him about John, but I'm sure it was imortant to him, and he definitely loved her. And she loved him. Mac put on a whole different way of being, speaking etc. in this ep, she was trying real hard to hide what she was feeling. When Harm had his back turned, she took the album that she had denied that she wanted. Of course Harm knows this, cuz it was in his fantasy/hallusination. Real-Mac also hides what she is feeling sometimes, although, not as strongly as in this scenario, and this showed us that Harm realizes that. I don't think Harm was passive in their marriage, he was probably busy a lot, and just assumed that the fact that they loved eachother would be enough. Okay, that sounds a little passive. The zillion phone calls at their honeymoon surpised me. 4) Even though this probably was rather exaggarated, I think Harm and Mac could have ended up somewhat like this. Because Harm wasn't ready in Sydney, I don't think Harm was fully ready for this relationship until around Paraguay (or maybe later, maybe not until H&F1 or somewhere in between). 5) I don't think Mac wanted to be asked about what her unspoken desires were. She was busy trying to love Webb, and in her unspoken desires, I'm sure we would have found Harm somewhere. "Wherever you go, there you are" - Mac's fortune could mean that she was at the right place in life, quite the opposite from the real fortune, actually. I loved the theme of fate in "What If", and after FWFS it takes on a whole new meaning. Yikes, I've never written so much on the Harmyboard, but on this episode, there is still so much more to say. But I'm probably done now:-) (NT)--Ava, 22:31:29 07/08/05 Fri

Good point, Ava, about the "fate" theme in What If. Mac's line after the ticket blows away that "Fate just keeps finding a way to intervene" comes back again in FWFS. Harm believed in fate to determine their future in both episodes. (NT) -- Araninda, 22:40:57 07/08/05 Fri

Yup, and no matter what they do, how much they screw up with each other, fate always brings them together in the end, be it in the "real" world or the "in Harm's mind" world. (NT) -- Ava, 22:56:19 07/08/05 Fri

4.5 This ep was funny, well-written, and creative--much like the old JAG we knew and loved. 2) It was always my belief that if TG had still been alive they would have used Mic as the "other man". But in his absense, they had to use someone else. Since the point was that she was rekindling an old flame (and thus could suddenly be engaged before their divorce was final) they had to use someone she had already dated prior to Sydney (when they supposedly got together in this AU). With Dalton dead, that left Farrow as the only other choice. I also like Hope's answer to this question and all the other questions. 3) I think he saw himself as nostalgic about their relationship because that is how he really was. He didn't think Mac was nostalgic about it because she seemed so ready to throw it away in Paraguay when she said "never". So he probably was still thinking of the "antagonistic Mac" we saw in the Paraguay arc. 4) I do think they would have had some problems if they had married soon after Australia if they weren't ready at that time, which I don't think they were. But I don't think their problems would have been that extreme. Getting married now, however, I do believe that they have both matured for the better and will have a much more successful marriage. Considering how much they have been through together, I think they will be more willing to work at it and will not "sweat the small stuff" so to speak. 5) I think she was scared to face the prospects that the fortune cookie brought up. She was sort of in a state of denial. She had been forcing down the unwanted thoughts and feelings as she tried to make her life work with Webb (the square peg--round hole analogy comes to mind). I think she just didn't want to take the risk of facing the unknown.(NT)--JAG Junkie, 22:42:21 07/08/05 Fri

Q1: On a scale of 0 to 5, with 5 being great, how would you rate this episode and why? A: 4.5 because if nothing else, it was certainly fun...and you have to admit the mind of Harmon Rabb, Jr. would be an interesting and delightful place to find oneself. Q2: Why was Farrow the man that Harm envisioned Mac leaving with? Why not Webb? Why not a new man? Why did Harm even see another man in the picture? A: Actually, I think this is indicative of how Harm saw Webb - while he accepted that Mac had chosen to be with Webb for whatever reason, he did not see him really as a serious contender for her. Perhaps Webb was more of an �issue� for us and Mac than he was for Harm. If not Webb why Farrow? I also agree with Hope that Farrow is probably the one man in Mac�s life that he respected enough to �see her with.� Q3: Why did Harm envision Mac as antagonistic (i.e., the tire iron) and realistic, while he saw himself as more passive and nostalgic in their marriage? Or did he? A: His response to her is interesting - I don�t think the antagonism was a negative thing for him, I think he *likes* a spunky Mac (the tire iron) and sees her this way but believes that she can be fatalistic and thus more ready to give up and walk away (realistic.) Also, in his mind she gave up her JAG career for him - and not only that but that the job (a case she had to turn over to him when she left)played a part in his life even when they were on their honeymoon so maybe he was just projecting his frustration if the situation had been reversed...who knows. Q4: How much of �What If� do you believe would have actually happened if Harm & Mac had married soon after Australia? How much of �What If� is realistic for their marriage now? A: For me this confirms how he took Mac�s proposition on the ferry - that she wasn�t just after a quick fling but that they were going to start a committed relationship. Their marriage would have then come at a time when neither were ready to �let fate decide�. They would have still been trying to force it into what they thought it should be - to the detriment of the relationship. Both had to be at the point that the other was more important than any other consideration and even in RL, sometimes that takes a long time. For now? I think his playfulness will still be there (the chair chase)... and don�t I wish I could see it.<> :) Q5: Why did Mac not want to admit that her fortune cookie also said �your unspoken desire is the road not taken, take it�?
A: She wasn�t ready yet to face that he was what she most wanted and that she *should* go after him.(NT)-- gingersnap, 22:45:09 07/08/05 Fri

I did like this ep for alot of reasons, I give it a 4.5. I loved that we got to see Harm smile. I liked AU because there was no Webb at all...2).why no Webb. Maybe it was a gift to the shippers who were pretty furious by then.3)Mac was antagonistic...but he was INFURIATINGLY calm...and smug and he nearly blew it because of that...maybe thats the message of the dream. 4) None of it was realistic, they'd been through too much from 'What If...to Fair Winds and Following Seas. They behaved like children in the dream, theyre grown ups now. 5)Mac couldnt admit the message of the cookie because it hit too close to her heart. Harm knew that in the end, thats why the sly grin and the....YET...sigh. I still love that man! (NT)--mkim, 22:49:15 07/08/05 Fri

The way he says �Yet� I just melt. *sigh* (NT) -- Hope, 22:50:36 07/08/05 Fri

Yeah, I melted too. And then in "Automatic for the People" (which ironically, was on tonight) when he says "yet" again, I melted then too. (NT) -- JAG Junkie, 22:59:49 07/08/05 Fri

Do you guys think Harm always trusted fate to bring them together in the end? It certainly seems that way:-) (NT) -- Ava, 23:02:53 07/08/05 Fri

Seems that way. I think he believed they were meant to be together. (NT) -- Hope, 23:07:10 07/08/05 Fri

He even imagined Bud and Harriet not marrying and managing to find there way back together--I think he believed in fate--big time. (NT) -- manette, 23:19:31 07/08/05 Fri

Yup, I do too, but we haven't seen anything that suggests this before "What If", have we? (NT) -- Ava, 23:24:56 07/08/05 Fri

I give it a 5. I love this episode and I love it more every time I watch it. I find myself smiling through the whole thing. Being inside Harm's imagination was just too much fun. I think he had her with Farrow because he was the one old boyfriend that he liked and if they'd been married after Sydney Webb or Mic wouldn't have been old boyfriends. I think part of him imagining Mac as antagonistic had more to do with how he saw himself than it did with how he saw her. He thought he would screw things up--by not being able to make her happy-by not making the marriage a priority-- by always thinking there would be time--reflecting some of the things he'd done in pursuing a relationship with her in RL--his fears played out in his fantasy and her antagonism reflected what he felt was her real resentment toward him-- that came out in -not committing til I have one foot out the door- and other such comments. I don't think it was realistic at all. I think they both knew for a long time that they had deep feelings for each other-- but it was a matter of what they were willing to do about it that made them vulnerable. I think in RL if they'd crossed that hurdle and made the commitment lots of those problems would never have come to pass. I think this was Harm's way of looking at the mistakes he wouldn't want to make. Mac didn't want to say what her's said for the same reason Harm didn't. Because it would have been obvious--like a big pink elephant in the room to them and everyone at the table that that path would have been with each other. (NT) --manette, 23:15:33 07/08/05 Fri

Like what you said about how Mac was antagonistic because of the way he saw himself. That makes sence. Oh, and how true that everyone, including them selves would know what the road not taken was for both of them, had them read the fortunes out loud. I'm so glad Harm saw Mac's real fortune in the end, it looks like it gave him some hope, and maybe some understanding regarding Mac. (NT) -- Ava, 23:23:29 07/08/05 Fri

I actually saw Harm's perception of Mac as being spot on. Her tendency to do absolutely nothing to further a relationship with Harm, giving up on them so easily and moving on to another man who gives her what she wants from Harm without her having to do anything about it is how she's handled her 'relationship' with Harm so his projecting that into his fantasy seemed right. I don't think he was projecting his behaviors on Mac. I don't think Mac's being antagonistic had anything to do with Harm himself, but how he saw Mac handling her feelings for him and their relationship. He seemed to realize that even if they had gotten together in Sydney, Mac still wouldn't have been happy with him because she wouldn't have made an effort with him - which she never did. I think Harm was rationalizing why he wanted to wait back in Sydney. Because until they were both ready to make compromises and make an effort at a relationship it wouldn't have worked. They both had to be ready to do that and he knew neither he nor Mac were at that time. (NT)-- C, 14:20:18 07/09/05 Sat

Also, think about it. In Harm's daydream Mac didn't tell him or anyone what she wanted. She expected him to read her mind as usual. (NT) -- C, 14:24:01 07/09/05 Sat

And as you can see, since Harm didn't have any idea if Mac really loved him, he had her going off with another man instead of fighting or working to save their marriage. She gave up on them as usual without a fight and moved onto the next man who showed interest. I think until Harm knew how deep Mac's feeling for him were, he wasn't going to really make a move. Thank goodness for those transfers in FWFS, otherwise I shudder to think what would have happened. (NT) -- C, 14:26:39 07/09/05 Sat

To me, What If showed that Harm very much knew that Mac loved him -- but that she was attempting to deny her feelings. It seemed that he thought that Mac was going off with another man because he (Harm) wasn't giving her what she needed in the relationship and he seemed to admit his part in their failed relationship. To me, this episode was a turning point for Harm. Mac's turning point was 4% Solution. (NT) -- Sammy, 15:02:23 07/09/05 Sat

Also, I think that it shows that Harm knew what Mac wanted -- for him to make an emotional investment in their relationship and start a family. Harm seemed to show himself as someone who put too much focus on work and his hobbies and did not spend enough time with his wife -- hence the calling in to work on their honeymoon, not being around to take down the Christmas tree, sprucing up his vette instead of trading it in for a family car. However, I agree with you C that he thought Mac was giving up too easily on them. (NT) -- Sammy, 15:28:15 07/09/05 Sat

Bravo Sammy and about C mentioning Mac giving up too easily on Harm.Im an old-fashioned romantic so I love movies or shows that the man never gives up his woman but is really the one so instrumental in pursuing and fighting to win her heart.This is what fantasy and romance is all about. (NT) -- swooning rydell, 03:11:51 07/10/05 Sun

Something else I think is funny when you think of it as something that Harm included in his imagination is the way Krennick is still coming on to him--and the cocky way he talks back to her. I thought it was a real example of how this way a male fantasy and not how he would act in real life-- the same with the little things like signing the divorce papers one day and getting remarried the next. (NT) -- manette, 23:46:23 07/08/05 Fri

This is fun popcorn Jag and I love it.Harm and Mac are simply adorable and so in love. They're soulmates,I believe it and even Harm believe in them. I dont think Mac love Farrow but she's the only guy that also saved her altho not in the dreamy Harmy way we all love.Even Farrow symbolicly gave Mac away to Harm at the end of People vs Mac to keep her away from trouble; even Farrow knew they're meant to be and that Harm is the ONE. (NT) -- StephanieY -gotta go because Im so tired from work, 00:19:32 07/09/05 Sat

1) I give it a five! This is one classic JAG: fun, creative, and shippery! :) 2) I think Harm never thought Webb was a real threat. It was almost as if he was waiting Mac to come to her senses!! John Farrow, on the other hand, is a different story. He was Mac�s real �first love� since Chris really did not count! 3) I think it reflected the reality since Mac was kind of giving up on him and dating Webb, 4) I think not. I think they would have been very happy (I am really a hopeless shipper)!, 5) I guess she was feeling silly! (NT) -- Acer, 00:14:19 07/09/05 Sat

Two things are important in this eps. and they will show again at the end of 9 seasson and seasson 10.Fate and wait. Harm think that He and Mac will be together because is their destiny but he has to learn to leave Mac make her desicion about them. So after WI they state his love for her and wait and He win at the end. (NT) -- Gra, 00:41:32 07/09/05 Sat

Interesting observation Gra....Fate and Wait!!! Great new name for the JAG....LOL. I give this episode a 5. It was so wonderful coming in the middle of a very serious, often painful season. There was so much hope and joy in it. I remember when we all went bananas with the word "Yet"...sigh. (NT) -- Cece, 04:39:04 07/09/05 Sat

I give it a 1 because Mac looked great, otherwise I HATED it. It was just more crap from Don. I will probably never watch this episode again, that's how much I hate it. If i want to see Harm and Mac NOT having a realationship, I can just watch any epsode other than fariwinds. This should have been a gift, a what if they made it work. Instead it was just a "See I told you they won't work" message from Don. (NT) -- David, 06:17:53 07/09/05 Sat

Great point David. I didn't vote for this one as a favorite of the season for the same reason. It was sad that Harm saw them not being successful in a relationship and mostly because of his faults ie: working all the time, wanting things and toys more than her, etc. It also portrayed Mac as unfaithful before they were divorced and I didn't like they portrayed Harm thinking Mac would do that. Mac did look good, but Harm was OUTSTANDING so I will rewatch it for that and for the....yet!! (NT) -- RitaB/8, 11:26:41 07/09/05 Sat

Yeah, their relationship had had issues and problems, but don't forget they were happy while it lasted, and most importantly; they ended up togehter in the end:-) It's fate... (NT) -- Ava, 11:39:29 07/09/05 Sat

I just don't think this ep was meant to be viewed with such a serious eye. This was about his fears--about what might've happened if he'd chosen this road-- his unspoken desire... and he feared (rightly or wrongly) that he would have screwed things up -and it was a flight of fancy-things don't follow logical timelines in fantasies or dreams and things like signing divorce papers one day and getting remarried the next was symbolic of his fear of losing her--not an indictment of her character. He believed they were meant to be together and in his fantasy-by the end she agreed too. I loved it. (NT) -- manette, 12:59:58 07/09/05 Sat

David, how could you make such a romantic comedy a la Cary Grant, into such a depressing piece of work? This was fantasy, and it had all the hallmarks of a 50's romantic movie. I loved it. H and M wanted each other in the end, and knew it. It was filled with hope, particularly when Harm realises that he has yet to take the road of his destiny. (NT) -- Cece...I give this a big whopping 5!, 21:26:56 07/09/05 Sat

Re: why didn't Mac want to admit what the fortune cookie said -- My take -- when Harm got his fortune cookie, he didn't want to read the fortune out loud. Mac told him that, since he did not want to read it out loud, he must believe it is true. Then when Mac got her cookie, she lied about what it said, hence she did not read her fortune out loud. Based on what Mac said to Harm previously, this must mean that Mac believed that the fortune was true -- that the unspoken desires of her heart were on the road not travelled. Thus, when Harm saw Mac's fortune, he knew that she still loved him.(NT) --Sammy, 13:43:28 07/09/05 Sat

I like your take on that. Never thought of it that way before. (NT) -- bama lurker (BDV), 17:59:47 07/09/05 Sat

I'm probably reading too much into this, but does anyone find it interesting that in Harm's "fantasy", Mac has long hair? What is it with men and long hair? (NT) -- JAG Junkie--MyDH said I can wear my hair straight, curly, blond, or brown, just not short! LOL!, 14:48:43 07/09/05 Sat

I didnt like this episode that much. I wouldnt rate it better than 2. To me it didnt depict either of them as acting like they would in a marriage, Harm as not doing his share of the work and Mac as being unfaithful. (NT) -- Truman, 15:17:12 07/09/05 Sat

I enjoyed this episode because its a diff.setting for everyone just to let loose and have fun. Its indeed reminiscent of good ole classic films but for those that havent seen some of it then they're lost. I guess that's the difference with a few webfans and many offliners because we dont take episodes SO seriously or analyze too much you take the joy out of it. Thumbs up all the way. (NT) -- rydell, 19:53:34 07/09/05 Sat

i love this episode, but at first i was hoping to see some kissing scenes between harm and mac before they got in an argument and maybe even harm could have imagined their wedding, and honeymoon and then go from there but i thought the episode was great looking into harm and mac's future, which actually really happened, except the breaking up part. (NT) -- Melissa, 20:16:19 07/09/05 Sat

I didn't see this episode this week--if it was on somewhere this week. I wish I had iut on tape. But I remember it looked like the actors had fun doing it. I agree with Cece that it was a bit of Harm having the Oh poor me's. (NT) -- PB, 21:24:35 07/09/05 Sat

1) 5, it was just plain fun. 2) Maybe because the only time Mac ran to someone besides Harm when she was in trouble it was to Farrow and that struck a chord with Harm 3) He couldn't imagine messing up if Mac were like she really is? 4) I think Harm had to justify Australia to himself, I don't think any of that would have happened. I don't worry about it for the future, either. - I'm more worried about two adults who have been on their own for so long adjusting to the give and take of married life. 5) Dunno, it's the same one everyone else had and she knew it. Make a comment on the lack of creativity of the writers, giggle and move on. (NT) -- Carrotts, 00:13:23 07/10/05 Sun

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