Hmm, methinks we haven't considered something fully. :-) -- Season Eight Fanfic Discussion

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Date Posted: 23:57:32 03/13/03 Thu
Author: Kashmanik - all writers, please take note.
Subject: Hmm, methinks we haven't considered something fully. :-)

Right, so we know Proserpexa is the BB.

But what's her agenda? :-)

Someone mentioned time manipulation, but there's got to be a reason. Here's something I've been considering...

Proserpexa was turned to stone and mounted on the front of her temple as a warning to any other demons who might try to seize power like she did. (Maybe Native American witchdoctors did it to her?) The curse they placed over Proserpexa was that as long as life grew around her temple, she would be imprisoned. (This could also tie in to the reason why the ground became dead and scorched at the base of the temple in Grave.)

So, Proserpexa wants to freeze time - if she did that, life wouldn't grow, and she would be free of her prison. (Here's an opportunity to tie in Willow's wiccan beliefs, as well as Gaia and the "connections" mentioned in Lessons.)

BUT, Proserpexa's ultimate goal is to commit suicide. She was a deeply evil, but deeply emotional demon. Her followers meant everything to her, and now that they're dead and gone, she feels she has nothing to live for.

The snag is, she's immortal in this world - always has been, which is why the Natives turned her to stone in the first place. (AND here's an opportunity to tie in the mythology of Medusa, who was a snake-haired woman whose gaze turned her victims to stone. Maybe the Natives found a way to turn her own power against her?)

I'm thinking of great parallels between Raven and Proserpexa. Raven could be obsessed by her own reflection, and she's covered wherever she's living in mirrors. Her obsession is due to the vampire aspect within her - part of the Slayer essence remains, and it forces the demon to gaze upon itself out of guilt. Whereas Proserpexa could be terrified of mirrors - it was a magically-forged mirror which made her own gaze turn her to stone in the first place.

So, we if people like this idea, we just need to think of a way that Proserpexa intends to kill herself. Linda_Delurked suggested that massive natural disasters hit Sunnydale during the seasons final episodes - could Proserpexa have called up these forces to try and kill her?

Just think this would be an interesting way to go - a demon who simply wants to die, but her drive is such that she will stop at nothing to get what she wants. It would also fit Proserpexa's character, of being cold and unemotional if she was suffering from major depression.

Obviously this idea needs fleshing out, but I'm very keen on the Proserpexa suicide notion. We also need to work out why Raven is helping her.

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Replies:

[> I love that idea Kashy, idea for Raven -- Faithsguy, 00:10:47 03/14/03 Fri

Raven might have been informed incorrectly about Proserpexa from her followers, maybe they offered Raven power or something, after all if we are turning the tables on the big bad this year, like a suicidle one, maybe Raven is just on a power trip after all, its not about good, its not about evil, its about power...maybe Raven thinks that once the temple is raised she can rule with Proserpexa...

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[> [> Oh, can I expand on that one? -- Kashmanik, 00:14:47 03/14/03 Fri

What if, back in Raven's days (before whatever happened to put her out of action for centuries) she had been convinced by the Cult of Proserpexa to help them in protecting her from the Natives. She'd been on her way to Sunnydale when *insert event here* happened and she never made it. And now that she's awake/free, she plans to take up her mission once more, but gets to the Hellmouth and finds Proserpexa imprisoned, and thinks - "Time to wake up the boss".

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[> Re: -- Mark, 00:13:42 03/14/03 Fri

Honestly I'm not really keen on the idea of her killing herself, it just doesn't seem all that good for a master plan, but that's just my opinion. When I suggested time, my idea was that she wanted to destroy all of time, which would destroy every dimension, every world, every living thing that has ever been born or ever will be born. The point of this was to start over a new regime controlled only by her where she is the supreme, unquestioned ruler. She has many, many enemies in uncountless dimensions so destroying time will wipe them all out, and all opposition to come. It would also succesffully destroy the Slayer line, the Powers that Be, anything that could stand in her way.

Then, it would only be her left. She would essentially be God, the last thing alive anywhere (cause we could say the person who does the spell is not affected by the time destruction). In fact, she lives beyond time now, beyond the constraints of aging. She can then create a new order that will serve only her, for the rest of eternity. It's just so epic and grand scale. It's the biggest plan of any BB ever, and it will be the hardest and coolest to stop.

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[> [> I just think that another Apocalypse is a mistake. -- Kashmanik, 00:17:36 03/14/03 Fri

It's becoming such an oft-used term in the Buffyverse that it carries very little weight now.

It's fair enough if you aren't keen on my plan, but I don't think another end-of-the-world situation is the right way to go.

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[> [> [> But what's different... -- Mark, 00:19:42 03/14/03 Fri

Is that it's done in such a different way. This is not the end of the world, it's the end of every world, EVER. It's not just Hellmouth Hell on Earth, it's basically like no Earth lol. but we'll see how it turns out we can work and change a lot of it.

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[> [> [> [> But from a Scooby perspective it's no different. -- Kashmanik, 00:26:08 03/14/03 Fri

I know if I was living in Sunnydale, I wouldn't be concerned about other dimensions being wiped out. I'd only care about my own, which would already have been seriously threatened more than half a dozen times.

I think my concern is that the plan is too huge. Not for us writers, but for the show. Over the years the tendency has been to create more and more evil, sinister and dangerous characters. I just feel we should back away from that, and create a BB that the audience can actually sympathise for, in a strange sorta way.

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[> [> [> [> [> hear hear! -- Faithsguy, 00:31:05 03/14/03 Fri

a sympathetic demon and maybe buffy could actually feel sorry for her **ala maybe feeling a closeness to her as she was in heaven and wanted nothing more to get back there and she couldnt** and then Buffy has to kill her....wait not kill cause that is what proserpexa wants, maybe Buffy will have to Banish her back to the temple or to the hellmouth or something in a way that Proserpexa can never die...

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[> [> [> [> [> Yeah good point -- Mark, 00:31:36 03/14/03 Fri

Yeah that is a good point. I like the idea of making Proserpexa more of a tragic figure - except I sympathasized with the Mayor! I kinda wanted the big ol' snake to win! -

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[> [> [> [> [> [> who didnt...thats besides the point, unlike the mayor -- Faithsguy, 00:34:42 03/14/03 Fri

we should make this out to be a sad loveable character lol!!! is there anyone who didnt like the mayor?

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> I loved the Mayor! lol that's all I have to say -- imisstara, 00:36:18 03/14/03 Fri

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[> [> I agree with Mark -- imisstara, 00:17:49 03/14/03 Fri

Proserpexa "I just want to die" is a lot like Glory "I just want to go to Hell." It's been done. Plus, if we use the idea to destroy Sunnydale, well then its even MORE like Glory with her opening the portal.

I like Mark's idea because it's so HUGE, its so sinister. lol sorry but commiting suicide is just so anticlimatic.
But the idea to want to become a God, a supreme ruler, and to destroy time to do it, well that's pretty damn cool lol! and it will be cool to write.

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[> No i agree with Kashy....**board fight!!!** j/k -- Faithsguy, 00:21:10 03/14/03 Fri

I dont think it should be "I just wanna die" but i think her plan to wipe out time could maybe be that she wants to wipe out everything that has happened since she was alive, to kinda wipe her out and it just happens that she wipes everything and everyone out who has happpened since Proserpexa came to be, in the beginning of time...

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[> [> I'll take you all on! -- imisstara, 00:24:26 03/14/03 Fri

Lol just kidding. haha I love discussing stuff like this and fleshing ideas out. Yeah that sounds cool Faithsguy, I like that better then just trying to freeze time so she won't be immortal. I really think she should want time *destroyed*. ANd plus, the freeze time thing was done on that season 2 Angel episode and I just don't think it's something we want to do.

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[> [> [> Re: -- Mark, 00:27:54 03/14/03 Fri

Yeah I like that idea Faithsguy. I could live with that. She would want to destroy every year she lived, basically. But I think the reason for her suicide should be different than shes sad that her followers are dead. I think that's a little hard to buy. I mean, if she's that sad that her followers are dead why not just go back in time and bring them back or go to them? I thikn we need to flesh out her actual motivations more but I like the idea of wanting to kill herself and to destroy time to do it.

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[> [> yeah thats what I think.... -- Faithsguy, 00:27:07 03/14/03 Fri

If she just wants to freeze time, its just as dull as "I want to just kill myself" but if she wants to wipe her whole existance out along with anyone who has lived since her creation because its the only way for her to die... I think it might work...

-Faithsguy

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[> [> [> Yeah I agree...read my above post for more about that -- Mark, 00:30:23 03/14/03 Fri

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[> [> [> You misunderstand. -- Kashmanik, 00:31:27 03/14/03 Fri

The time freezing would only be for a small portion of one episode. Just so that she can escape. It wouldn't be Proserpexa's ultimate goal at all, and I don't think I said that.

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[> [> [> [> Well... -- Mark, 00:35:25 03/14/03 Fri

Well you said: "So, Proserpexa wants to freeze time - if she did that, life wouldn't grow, and she would be free of her prison. "

So I think we all took that to mean that her plan was to freeze time and her prison was her life. But I thought she was just going to escape when the Four Horsemen or Raven opened the Hellmouth. She could just like walk out basically lol. I don't think we need the time aspect yet at that point if that's what you mean. And I mean it would only be a split second anyway, not like the Scoobies could fight cause they'd be frozen.

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[> [> [> [> ah alas, its starting to come together...and what if... -- Faithsguy, 00:36:00 03/14/03 Fri

we make it that "if buffy kills Proserpexa, time will unravel and the dimensions will melt together as this is a consequence of Proserpexa coming into being..."

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[> [> [> [> [> "Dimensions melt together"? Isn't that a little too Season 5-esque? -- Kashmanik, 00:38:51 03/14/03 Fri

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[> [> [> [> [> [> You're right Kashy, this is a good storyline lets not -- Faithsguy, 00:41:28 03/14/03 Fri

make it resemble any part of any other season so far, maybe all of time period will unravel, every dimension, every person will suffer....thats not too season fiveish is it?

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Maybe it's a case of fracturing time. -- Kashmanik, 00:43:38 03/14/03 Fri

Time would literally smash, like a window with a brick thrown through it. People and events would just move randonly from shard to shard for eternity. Chaos. Everyone would still be alive, but the universe would just be plunged into anarchy.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Forgot to mention.... -- Kashmanik, 00:44:42 03/14/03 Fri

Time would literally smash, like a window with a brick thrown through it. People and events would just move randonly from shard to shard for eternity, ***and between the past, present and future***. Chaos. Everyone would still be alive, but the universe would just be plunged into anarchy.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> well I had a neat idea -- Faithsguy, 00:46:51 03/14/03 Fri

for anyone is writing a later ep, feel free to use this:

What if for an episode or part of an episode, time starts to go all wonkey like maybe one of the eps between 19 thru 22 to show that bad things are starting happen, things and people start to change because time is being screwed up,

Like all of a sudden Giles thinks he is ripper again, or Spike grows long blonde hair and talks with his old accent and doesnt realize he is a vampire, or Buffy forgets she is the slayer because she reverts back to a fourteen year old girl who doesnt remember dawn...

get the drift, just things start randomly changing in time and then changing back...hm....maybe something interesting with dawn...pre-human form...

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Hmm, I'd envisioned it more like..... -- Kashmanik, 00:53:37 03/14/03 Fri

Each Scoob was individually in their own "shard", as is everyone else in the world. So each Scoob would be travelling back and forth randomly through time alone, to different points in their lives and in alternate universes.

Of course, my way might be too complicated to make an episode of, but we could come up with clip montages of what they each see.

**OR**

Alternatively, we could sort of rip off an idea from ST:Voyager. In one episode different parts of the ship exist in different time frames and alternate universes. What if the same happened to Sunnydale? We could have the HS back in the days before Buffy got transferred there, so we see a young Xander and Willow. We could have Buffy's house where she's living as a total recluse, having been convinced by Giles to kill Dawn in "The Gift". The Bronze could be there, and in this reality Oz is a famous rock star who's come to do a gig in his hometown.

Just little things like that might be fun. ;-)

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> I think... -- Mark, 00:47:54 03/14/03 Fri

I think that's a cool idea. But if this happens and people move randomly through time I just think we need to make sure we don't fall in the trap of bringing back dead characters like Joyce or Jenny or whatever, and use "Time" as an excuse. It may be tempting but I thinkit would be stupid if we had all these characters meet because time is being manipulated. I'm not saying anyone has suggested it, I just think we need to be careful we don't take the easy route and do that.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> well if she cant control death, even hers then... -- Faithsguy, 00:50:45 03/14/03 Fri

maybe she cant bring people back from the dead, maybe Osiris has a personal hate towards Proserpexa and that could be another reason she cant control her own death...

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Cool idea -- Mark, 00:54:06 03/14/03 Fri

Do you guys think Willow actually killed Osiris when she hit her with that magic blast in "Villains?" I never was clear on that because the way she screamed and disappeared it kind of seemed like she did but yet she's a god so you think it would take more than that. Anyway if she is alive we could maybe work her into it a tiny bit, even if it's just a mention or cameo.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Osiris is male. :-) -- Kashmanik, 00:55:27 03/14/03 Fri

But yeah, working that in could be a possibility. Although we don't want to overload the season with recurring baddies from past seasons. But a few mentions of Osiris might be good.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Anyway, I gotta be at college in 8 hours.... -- Kashmanik, 00:58:39 03/14/03 Fri

And in those 8 hours I presumably have to get some sleep. :-)

Night all. Keep brainstorming ideas, and we'll see what the general consensus is on Friday/Saturday.

*Kashy sleepily waves g'night*

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Good night! And for a male... -- Mark, 00:59:35 03/14/03 Fri

Osiris always seemed kinda femmy to me. lol

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Heh. The only reason I know is cos..... -- Kashmanik, 01:02:08 03/14/03 Fri

..of Stargate SG-1. Osiris is a male Goa'uld on the show, and he had to take a female host because no one else was available. And it was remarked on that this was pretty odd. :-)

(And SG-1 tends to be *very* accurate with it's Egyptian mythology.)

Night.

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[> [> [> [> [> Cool idea! -- Mark, 00:39:12 03/14/03 Fri

That's a cool idea, that if Buffy kills Proserpexa time will unravel anyway. But then lol how DO they stop her, if they can't kill her?

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[> [> [> [> Re: -- imisstara, 00:37:38 03/14/03 Fri

Sorry I think we all thought you meant time freezing was her plan. Anyway I like the direction these ideas are going. Let's keep it up boys!

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[> Spoilers for episode 8.21! Did someone mention a board fight? -- Linda_Delurked - have mud, will wrestle!, 18:02:20 03/14/03 Fri

I like the idea of a suicidal BB, but Mark is right. We'd need a better idea than just her followers dying. I think I know a way to conbine both Kash's AND Mark's idea. What if Pyrexdishia smashes time so that she can remake it according to her own wishes. That is, wipe out the people who imprisoned her before they have a chance to do that, and making the entire world follow her will.

I was actually going to have Picessignia win at the end of my episode, as in she smashes an object that controls time (which I'm hoping someone will introduce in a previous episode - please?) at the very end. She stabs Buffy through the heart just before she does this, killing Willow and Dawn in the process as they are linked together to try and defeat her. Anyway, I didn't really worry about what would happen next as I'm assuming I won't have to write it (hee hee! *ahem* sorry!) but I did imagine something similar to what Kash described - the gang slipping in and out of different times, and still having one last chance to stop Pigsinspacia.

It would literally mean that all bets are off for the final episode. We could have any character doing anything in any time. Not just the usual Buffy cast, but anyone! Slayers of the past, slayers of the present, watchers, demons, total strangers, gods and goddesses, anything! If we need a reason for why they are aware of what has happened we can say that Dawn's powers were activated when all the dimensions were destroyed, or that her keyness was just enough to disrupt it so that the scoobies could remember.

There's the added angst that restoring time and destroying Pieintheskya will mean death for Buffy, Willow and Dawn. Probably.

Thoughts anyone? Is this a good idea? Or do I need to change my ending?

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[> [> I LOVE IT I can see itnow.... -- Faithsguy, 19:36:16 03/14/03 Fri

Last scene:

Interior dark world, Proserpexa stands before the scoobys, Dawn and Buffy know their plan. They have just been reuinited after being sperated for so long. Buffy fears that if she continues with this plan, Dawn may die...

Proserpexa :: Time will start again, and I will rule this universe, and none of you will remember eachother.

Buffy: Think again! Willow now!

Willow turns to Proserpexa her eyes are now flooding with red she grabs Dawn, both their eyes turn green.

Dawn opens her mouth as green energy floods Proserpexa literally disintagrating her. Lights flood the darkness as the world goes back to the way it was. The scoobies stand around looking Down on the ground. Willow stands and looks down also. Buffy kneels down still looking down.

Buffy: Dawny?

The screen goes to black

he he he...evil...

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[> [> [> You are soooo meeeean! And WRITERS PLEASE ANSWER QUESTION! -- Linda_Delurked, 20:27:18 03/14/03 Fri

That is really really cruel!

The reason I went for my ending is that it provides a really good cliff hanger, and it also means that when it comes to the finale, the writers can do anything they want. They can play it whatever way suits them best.

But I do need to know if this is an okay format for my ep, or if it leaves too much to be covered in the finale. Kash and Mark are right, we need to have Pressthebuttonsa's storyline all ironed out before we go any further with the episodes. I love the idea of smashing time to change the past in her own image, so much more than your common or garden apocalypse that the gang constantly prevent.

If it's of any help, I can draw up an outline for my episode as I have the format more or less done. But to do that I need to know which of the gang is going to die, or betray the others or both, before episode 21. Has that been decided yet, or is it up to the previous writers? If I'm not allowed know this yet I'll draw up a proto-script with all the characters and change it around when the time comes. I can send it to Kashy as early as next Tuesday or Wednesday.

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[> [> [> [> Maybe we could have... -- anyas_butt_monkey, 01:58:43 03/15/03 Sat

One of the characters exempt from the time thingie....Dawn perhaps? Her Keyness makes her "immune" to the effects, or something....I think it would be interesting, we could have Dawn skipping in & out of the time periods, talking to different characters and whatnot, relaying information and stuff...

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[> [> [> [> [> A bit like Picard in the final episode of Next Gen? -- Linda_Delurked, 18:27:13 03/18/03 Tue

Ha! There could be a line where Xander mentions that episode! What was it called, "All Good Things" or something? He'd know, or Andrew would. They could refer to the Voyager episode with Kes too!

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