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Subject: Help Me Parent My Student-Athlete Author: An Observer [ Next Thread | Previous Thread | Next Message | Previous Message ] Date Posted: 09:45:27 03/13/25 Thu Yes, I'm trying to crowd source parenting skills. In the immortal words of Matt Hooper to Quint after their boat lost its engine and the shark was circling, "You got any better ideas?" Last night, I had one of the moments when I knew that I would have to step up to my A game as a father. It was go time. Last year as a freshman, my daughter played JV soccer for her high school team. Her goal for this season was to make the varsity. She was one of the better players on the JV a year ago, but not the best. Six seniors were graduating from the varsity and she had done the math. Tryouts were going well and she was optimistic about her chances. When I got the news that she was relegated to the JV for another year, I immediately FaceTimed my daughter. Her eyes were red from crying. Her teeth and lips were all dark blue from I hope binge-eating Italian ice or popsicles. She was a mess. Two sophomores and one freshman had made the varsity. She was probably one of the First Two Out, in bubble-speak. We had a long talk and went over the consolation advantages of playing JV for another year: o she'll be a starter o she'll get to play her preferred position, center midfielder o way more playing time (would definitely ride the pine on varsity, obviously) o will score goals and assists o bigger fish, smaller pond o get better for her junior and senior years o get to keep her current jersey number, which she chose because I had casually said months before that I liked single digit uniform numbers (My daughter never told me how she selected her number. My wife told me after the fact. I can't tell you how happy that made me.) She seemed to be able to internalize those advantages of playing JV. I discussed some of the crushing setbacks in my own life which ultimately led to good things, all of which my wife later told me are stories that I've told before. God, it hurts to see your child hurt like that. I realize that this is not a medical challenge, an accident or losing a relative, but I think how my wife and I handle this situation will be remembered for a long time, so I'm taking it very very seriously. A bad fumble now is the kind of thing that kids tell their therapists at age 40. Does anybody have any fatherly advice to pass along? [ Next Thread | Previous Thread | Next Message | Previous Message ]

Replies:

[> Subject: I think you nailed the big points Author: Go Green [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 10:08:45 03/13/25 Thu A coach who has been around basketball his entire life (his father's name is on the court of a D-I team that has won a lot of games in the past generation) told me that there's something to be said for "playing down." That's how you learn to become "the guy" (work with me here) on a team and how to carry the team on your shoulders. It's a mindset that's hard to learn if you're a cog on a team. The only possible point that you might have missed is whether her best friends are on the JV or if they got promoted. There's nothing better than playing ball with your best buddies. Then again, it probably does suck a bit if your best buddies got promoted and you didn't... In any event, good luck to her!! Please let us know how it goes!! [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> Subject: Re: I think you nailed the big points Author: An Observer [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 10:19:43 03/13/25 Thu Jeez, GG, you really came through here. You're absolutely right about both points. My daughter does have sports ambitions which exceed her ability. She would in fact benefit from a situation where she can practice being "the man." And, yes! Her best friend in soccer also was relegated to the JV. I will pass along both of your points tonight, very casually as if I had thought of them myself. Thank you very much. To me, this is the most important post I have ever read on this board. I am very grateful. [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> [> Subject: Happy to help! Author: Go Green [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 12:49:42 03/13/25 Thu Again, good luck to your daughter! Please keep us posted! (And to ensure that the post doesn't get deleted, say something along the lines that she or her classmates are hoping to be recruited by Ivy teams!). :) [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Happy to help! Author: An Observer [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 13:39:43 03/13/25 Thu Well, if she's struggling to make her high school varsity, I'm not going to be cutting recruiting videos to send to Division I coaches just yet. *BUT* one of her teammates is definitely going to be playing in college someday, maybe even at a member of the Ivy League athletic conference, composed of Brown University, Columbia University, Cornell University, Dartmouth College, Harvard University, the University of Pennsylvania, Princeton University and Yale University. This girl mentioned above you could tell when I coached her in first and second grade was going to be special. (I have a friend who produced with his wife three superstar athletes, whose names are all over the Ivy League record books. Two of them won the athlete of the year in their graduating classes. My friend has always said, "If you can't tell that a kid is truly special athletically by the time she is 13, she's not a Division I recruit.) The more that I think about your first point, the more right I think you are. One bad habit that my wife and I are often guilty of is thinking of our child as distinct from the team. I don't know how many times we've said, "The team lost, but you played well." Guess what? This year, that stops. The hidden blessing from playing on JV is that this team *WILL* be the responsibility of her and a small number of the better sophomores. They will win or lose based upon how well she plays. There will be much less distinction between her personal play and the team's success. I think that you hit the nail on the head. When you're a freshman, it's very hard to be "the man" on any high school team. Next year as a junior, if she makes the varsity, she'll appropriately defer to the seniors because she's not a superstar. This sophomore season is her time to practice being "the man" in preparation, in practice, and in games. And the first step in being "the man" is thinking that you SHOULD be "the man." This season on the JV is her time to do that. Great post, GG. The best ever on this board. I'm going to give her a GG pep talk tonight. Plus, I will mention to her that Michael Jordan also was cut from his high school varsity. He went home and told his father that he was quitting basketball and his father James said, "Excellent. Every day you can come home early and help me work." And that is how the second greatest basketball career of all time was launched. [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Happy to help! Author: KC [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 14:13:04 03/13/25 Thu I have three teenagers, all of whom have experienced sports- and life-related ups and downs, so I completely understand your angst. My only build on what you and GG have already said is that while the world definitely needs some people who see themselves as "the man," we need far more people who are comfortable being "one of the men" and whose confidence and sense of worth don't heavily depend on external recognition... people who see themselves as an important part of the universe, but not the center of the universe. This is a lot to ask of a person as young as your daughter, especially in our culture, but IMOH, starting to develop this mindset now will help her thrive throughout her life, which like everyone else's will be filled with highs and lows. I hope that down the road, your daughter looks back on her experience on JV and says to herself "playing on JV made me a better player, leader, and teammate." [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> Subject: Re: Help Me Parent My Student-Athlete Author: Lurker [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 15:21:56 03/13/25 Thu 2 tidbits: Is soccer fun? Joy is so often left out of youth/scholastic sports. This is related to the playing time point. If you enjoy playing the sport just resolve to do exactly that It is hard the hs players to truly understand that this year’s pecking order is not going to be the same for the duration. So many examples of athletes developing at different rates Best of luck. I am officially retired as a sports dad (albeit went out rooting on an Ivy championship) and already miss it. Btw to all sports parents dont forget about your Joy either. Cant believe how many make themselves miserable about coaches, refs, whatever. Enjoy watching, even the really great athletes from competitors [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> Subject: GG is a real treasure for each of us on this forum. Author: Valmas (Stoic) [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 16:33:09 03/13/25 Thu The guy can be relentlessly anal, but who loves Dartmouth, football and all sports, in as pure /a little boy a manner, as GG does?!?! That's why we ought to start a collective in his name - a name which I'll only divulge in immediate response to a seven-figure contribution to the collective! And we need to get this established soon; before we lose GG to Ivy chat, where Dartmouth representation is sorely lacking. [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> [> Subject: Re: GG is a real treasure for each of us on this forum. Author: Leo the Lion III [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 00:58:10 04/26/25 Sat Ivy Chat 10x better for CU men's and women's BB. Same thing for all other Ivy men's BB, particularly U Penn, Princeton and Yale. The level of dirt is off the charts,however, don't abandon Voy for Ivy Chat, just do both!!😇😂 [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> Subject: Re: Help Me Parent My Student-Athlete Author: RockHead [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 21:50:39 03/25/25 Tue As "An Observer" already mentiond above, tell her the Michael Jordan story. As a sophomore in high school he did not make the varsity and had to play JV. You can find many retellings of this story online. I'm sure you can figure out how to spin it for your daughter. P.S. Jordan was still pissed off about not making the HS team years later. I believe he brought the kid who beat him out and the coach who cut him to his NBA Hall of Fame induction. [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> Subject: And how are things going, AO? Author: Go Green [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 06:10:08 03/26/25 Wed Has your daughter's soccer season started yet? [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> Subject: Hope all's well, AO! Author: Go Green [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 17:20:33 04/21/25 Mon It's been a month since your last post! We miss you!!! [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> Subject: Would hate to think the Princeton gestapo succeeded in censuring AO, too! Author: Valmas (Stoic) [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 01:05:32 04/23/25 Wed https://www.instagram.com/reel/DE0ZRq9ofwh/?igsh=MW9zMTZzb3pudjZucA== [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> [> Subject: Re: Would hate to think the Princeton gestapo succeeded in censuring AO, too! Author: Bengal [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 12:48:31 04/23/25 Wed The moderator, if he is the same dedicated stalwart who set this forum up, is not a Princeton alum. Still a good guy, though. 😂Cheers Valmas! Big baseball showdown this weekend! [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Would hate to think the Princeton gestapo succeeded in censuring AO, too! Author: sparman [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 14:32:02 04/23/25 Wed The moderator doesn't allow holtsledge to post here. Not good in my book. [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Would hate to think the Princeton gestapo succeeded in censuring AO, too! Author: SpuytenDuyvil76 [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 05:50:17 04/24/25 Thu Saw what you did there! [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Would hate to think the Princeton gestapo succeeded in censuring AO, too! Author: SpuytenDuyvil76 (refer to Valmas below) [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 05:56:06 04/24/25 Thu Captcha ??? [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> [> [> Subject: I just don't know, B!?! Author: Valmas (Stoic) [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 15:58:36 04/23/25 Wed We know AO put a lot into his craft - before his mysterious disappearance, anyway. Even so, he was zapped by the powers that be, a number of times, herein - too many times, if you're asking me, for a writer of An Observer's level of contributions and stature! Not to mention, all AO ever did to get on the Gestapo's bad side was dare to predict Xaivian Lee would return to Princeton this coming fall, for the chance to complete his degree requirements; to break the school's all time records for field goals attempted and missed shots; along with cashing in on a 33% raise on his current 75k honorarium - imagine that: missing 800 shots (more than Bradley, Petrie and Armond Hill) and getting paid for it, at a rate of a thousand per miss! Admittedly, you've got to be pretty good, simply to garnet an opportunity to miss eight hundred shots at Princeton. After all, Joe Scott and John Thompson would have never given a thought to permitting a run of the mill drunkard to attempt over one-thousand shots; which may have provided enough inspiration for Pete Hegseth to now set up shop in a more crisis-filled arena; and one in which he gets to miss as many shots as he damn well pleases, on daily basis and all at our expense. [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: I just don't know (perhaps inadvertently well said) Author: sparman [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 09:37:31 04/24/25 Thu I suspect I will regret this - According to Sport Reference (and PU's website), in the course of his 3-year career, Lee missed 514 shots. https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/players/xaivian-lee-1.html; also https://goprincetontigers.com/sports/2006/7/31/1623775?path=mbball While this was more than Hill (464), it was less than Petrie (644) or Bradley (811). [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: sparman: you're spinning and deflecting more than a drunken Secretary of Defense! Author: Valmas (Stoic) [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 12:37:10 04/24/25 Thu Point being, given another year at Princeton, the grossly overrated Lee would easily add another 350 misses to his already questionable body of work! Not to mention, that Bradley and Petrie played without the benefit of the three point shot and still produced points per game averages that Lee has never come close - and never will, regardless of the uniform he dons or the amount of money he's paid to wear it. [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: sparman: you're spinning and deflecting more than a drunken Secretary of Defense! Author: sparman [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 19:05:01 04/24/25 Thu I had thought you were a real facts, instead of an alternative facts, kind of guy. [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: What alternative facts are you referring to, sparman? Author: Valmas (Stoic) [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 00:37:18 04/25/25 Fri https://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/player/stats/_/id/5107169/xaivian-lee You, yourself, concede Xaivian's already missed well over 500 shots these past three years; and the number would be higher, but for the FACT that Lee didn't start a single game as a Princeton freshman. So he's accumulated more than 400 misses as a starting soph and junior, which is A LOT and there's nothing about Lee's shooting form to suggest he'll suddenly reinvent himself into a superior marksman during his final NCAA season - not even you, sparman, are delusional enough to pivot in that direction. Yes, I am hypothesizing about something we'll never get to witness; though it's a short leap of faith to believe that Lee would've miss enough shots as a Princeton senior to surpass Bradley's field goals missed mark. That stated, X would never come close to Dollar Bill's singular scoring production levels: 2,500 plus NCAA career points and more than 30 points per NCAA game. So, I ask you again, sparman, what alternative facts are you hanging your hat on this time? [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: I just don't know, B!?! Author: sparman [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 10:24:03 04/25/25 Fri "imagine that: missing 800 shots (more than Bradley, Petrie and Armond Hill)" BTW no one here is pumping up Hegseth (and under forum rules, would not, as political commentary), so I suggest you take that elsewhere. But I submit that all our schools have some unsavory grads. [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: That's weak, sparman! Author: Valmas (Stoic) [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 18:28:23 04/25/25 Fri As much as it hurts you to imagine it, Lee would've gone over 900 misses in a Princeton uniform, in about ten months from this date; so consider yourself fortunate he's leaving! And Hegseth played Princeton basketball, too, so why should he be unmentionable, herein? While Columbia basketball did have Jack Molinas, it can at least be said that Jack paid the ultimate price for his transgressions. [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> Subject: Re: Hope all's well, AO! Author: An Observer [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 09:58:31 04/24/25 Thu Greetings, GG (and Michael)! Thank you for checking in, and for your original parenting suggestions at the top of this thread. I've been busy. Let's be clear. The post-war international trade regime which has developed/evolved/fallen into place since 1945 has benefitted America, this great country I love. That the costs and benefits of robust international trade accrue differentially to different parties is unfortunate, but not at all surprising. That the benefits accrue to everybody while the costs are borne most by the less educated, less economically productive members of the labor force is about as shocking -- shocking! -- as learning that there is gambling taking place in the casino. The greatest beneficiary of the post-WWII economic order is the United States of America. We're not the losers. We're the winners. We can do much to mitigate the costs borne by Rust Belt blue collar workers, but complaining about international trade by Americans is akin to winning the Super Bowl and then complaining about the refereeing. Yes, some calls were missed, including some important ones, but we won the game. We're the beneficiaries of trade. GG, I implemented in as robust a fashion as I could your recommendations to my daughter. I'm not sure how deeply she absorbed your/my/our suggestions, but she nodded and committed to being "the man" on her JV team. The team has been getting shellacked on the field and that is not helping, obviously, but I'm watching with concern and love. I don't want to mess this up. Michael, you of course are correct that I have been censored on this board on many an occasion. I can't remember if my comments about Xaivian Lee led to being censored, but they might have been. Obviously, I was wrong about Lee. Although, in my defense, I may end up being correct if he plays in Gainesville next winter and then drops out of U Florida to come back some time in the future for his Princeton degree. My opinion at that time was that no Asian/Korean parent was going to let his or her child walk away from a Princeton diploma. I may still end up being correct. Thanks for inquiring, and for your good wishes. My best to you all, and let's hope for the best for America. Cheers. [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> [> Subject: Great to have you back!! Author: Go Green [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 14:43:26 04/24/25 Thu ... although I'm sorry to hear that soccer season isn't going as well as we hoped it would! [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> Subject: An Update Author: An Observer [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 11:13:04 05/04/25 Sun Thank you again to GG, Michael and all the gracious well-wishers and supporters who have chimed in on this topic. In particular, I'd like to offer appreciation to KC, Lurker, and RockHead. As fathers all, you may be interested in this update from the soccer pitch. Yesterday's JV game was over when one of the coaches came over to talk to my daughter on the sideline. Usually, this means that she's being recruited to be a ball girl for the upcoming varsity game. She and the other JV players do that as a matter of course. Imagine the shock when the varsity team came jogging out of the locker room for their pre-game warm-up and there amongst the girls is my daughter, wearing a varsity uniform. Many of the posters on this board have experienced their son or daughter achieve great things on the athletic field. Some have won high school championships, perhaps even been recruited to play in college. The very fortunate and the very hard-working thrive at that highest level. Well, achievement and gratification come at lower levels, too. Seeing my daughter reach, at least technically, her goal for her sophomore season of playing for the varsity made my heart soar. And she got in the game, too, playing for about six minutes. That might be the last six minutes she sees for the varsity this year but I told her that this was the result of her hard work on the JV, of rededicating herself to her craft after not making the varsity roster after try-out's. So far, she's the only JV player who has suited up for the big girls. All of this was the result, in part, of the advice and support I received on this board three weeks ago. Thank you, gentlemen. I hope that this little episode recalls your own emotional moments as fathers, seeing your child struggle but then gather themselves for more hard work and then -- hopefully -- further success. My best to all the fathers who gave of themselves on this topic. [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> Subject: Re: An Update Author: Lurker [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 17:53:11 05/05/25 Mon Nice! [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> Subject: Wonderful to hear!! Author: Go Green [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 10:00:54 05/06/25 Tue AO- Congrats to you and your daughter! Very much hoping that the rest of the season goes well, too! Happy to report that I have my own "little victory" to report. Last week, my own eighth grade daughter got her first email inviting her to participate in the school's Elite Basketball Camp this summer from.... Yale. Yes, I know that Yale sent out hundreds (if not thousands) of such invites. I remember seeing Dartmouth Football staffers stuffing countless envelopes at old Davis Varsity House to send out to potential recruits. And I'm well-aware that my daughter's academic record (good grades at a traditional Ivy feeder) was likely what got Yale's attention rather than anything she did on the court. But still--it was cool to see her get that email!! And her grandparents were very impressed as well!! Here's to life's little victories!! May they keep on coming!!! [ Post a Reply to This Message ]