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Subject: Two Men's Differing Opinions Author: An Observer [ Next Thread | Previous Thread | Next Message | Previous Message ] Date Posted: 13:51:48 11/18/25 Tue In reply to: Bengal 's message, "NIL Ivy Arms Race Update: Penn collective" on 12:40:21 11/18/25 Tue I had a long and pretty animated argument with a Yale fan at Mory's last Saturday afternoon. A former Bulldog football player, he was adamant that it was in Yale's best interest to abandon the AI limitations which bind the Ivies and, by extension, the generally slow embrace of NIL deals (which definately are already present in our conference, but currently are more one-off's rather than a wave). I countered, "You don't think there's any benefit to trying to maintain some sort of level playing field with Harvard and Princeton, then using that agreement to keep the other five on board?" He continued, "No, that's collusion! The financial aid case which went to the Supreme Court determined that collusion is illegal. The AI is collusion. Yale needs to go its own way, setting our own academic standards. The other seven schools can do the same." I observed, "That's what Penn did in the 1970's. That was deemed untenable. That's why we have the AI in the first place." He said incorrectly, "The AI hurts Yale more than anybody else in the conference." It always surprises me when Ivy League graduates see no value in the Ivy brand in terms of academic rigor and general cachet. They just want to win more games and don't mind sacrificing the core and historical principles which brought us to formalize this conference in the 1950s. That is just short-sighted. Sure, winning is fun. Losing is uncomfortable and, if continued long enough, feels even worse than that benign adjective. We all know that. And that is precisely why major college sports is headed down into an NIL and portal-driven cesspool. No thanks to that crap. There are roughly 60 or 70 American universities who will stop at nothing to maximize winning in the interest of revenue and alumni engagement. We're not going to out-Ohio State Ohio State. Right now, Texas Tech and other newcomers to the octagon are trying to out-Ohio State Ohio State. Even if we out-OSU Ohio State, there's always going to be a Texas Tech right behind them. Graduates and fans of the eight Ivy League colleges are the beneficiaries of one of the great brand names not just in academia, but consumer mindshare in general. And some of us are willing to risk that brand equity in the name of feeling good watching our kids hold up trophies and rings. No. Please. [ Next Thread | Previous Thread | Next Message | Previous Message ]

Replies:

[> [> Subject: How well does he expect Yale to do? Author: Go Green [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 14:31:00 11/18/25 Tue If Yale wins on Saturday, they will get their third Ivy title in four years. Yale is doing just fine.

[> [> [> Subject: Re: How well does he expect Yale to do? Author: An Observer [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 15:08:02 11/18/25 Tue I read several of the fan websites catering to Ohio State fans in the aftermath of last season's shocking loss to Michigan. There were a lot of folks -- I mean, plenty -- who wanted Ryan Day fired. There are always nuts who think the only acceptable outcome is going undefeated every season, as though every game should be a win. Sometimes, one or more of those nuts are actual major donors and when they call the chancellor, people get fired. Look at James Franklin and Brian Kelly. I'm not here to defend the coaching ability of either Franklin or Kelly, but I'll note that Franklin did have a few opponents in Ohio State, Michigan and Oregon who seem to be trying pretty hard in football, too. Same for Kelly and Alabama, Texas and A&M. The narrative surrounding both Franklin and Kelly is that both men had independently told big donors last winter, "2025 is a peak cycle year for us. We just need more money *right now* to signs our additions from the transfer portal and this could be our year for a natty." Guys who haven't even closed their checkbooks yet are particularly predisposed to look negatively at a third loss in the season before November. Yale might win its third football championship in four years in just four days. But for some fans, that's not enough. That is the inevitable result when sports and big donors intersect. No, thanks.

[> [> [> [> Subject: Re: How well does he expect Yale to do? Author: Go Green [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 15:37:23 11/18/25 Tue On a Friends of Dartmouth Football Zoom call in 2021, Coach Teevens was prepared to discuss the end of our third straight 9-1 season. Despite all the victories, all some guys wanted to talk about was why we didn't show up against Columbia (in 2019) and Cornell (in 2021). Coach Teevens--in good humor--could only say "Hey come on, guys! I'm trying to go undefeated. But it's hard!" :)

[> [> Subject: Re: Two Men's Differing Opinions Author: Bengal [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 14:42:34 11/18/25 Tue I don't know what the 1970s reference refers to. But at the dawn of the League's formation in the 1950s, I believe Penn's President, Harold Stassen(?)(a consolation prize for never getting elected to another Presidency? lol) was considering maintaining Penn's independence in order to continue big time football. I think Mark bernstein's book discusses this episode, probably more accurately.

[> [> [> Subject: It is widely believed that... Author: Go Green [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 14:57:43 11/18/25 Tue ...Penn's lax admissions in basketball (and Cornell's lax admissions in hockey) in the 1970s led Harvard and Yale to impose the AI on the rest of us in 1981.

[> [> Subject: Re: Two Men's Differing Opinions Author: Son of Eli [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 15:05:59 11/18/25 Tue Bad sports teams don’t equal better academic reputations. What was the Ivy League’s athletic reputation before the AI was instituted around 1982? I would argue much better than today. Plus not having an AI hasn’t seemed to hurt Stanford’s,Duke’s, Notre Dame’s, Northwestern, etc. academic reputations any. Regardless , with grade inflation AI is irrelevant nowadays.

[> [> [> Subject: Re: Two Men's Differing Opinions Author: Son of Eli [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 15:14:08 11/18/25 Tue Plus I think an employer would much rather hire an Ivy athlete than an Ivy graduate who didn’t play sports, even if the non athlete was a bit ‘smarter”. The athletes are better rounded candidates who will be able to fit in better in a team environment. Not everything is GPA and SAT scores.

[> [> [> Subject: Well... Author: Go Green [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 15:23:58 11/18/25 Tue My recollection was that Penn was widely regarded as a bottom-tier Ivy from the 1970s to 2000. Keith Elias once famously declared in 1993 that half of Penn couldn't get into Princeton. Admittedly, not all of that was because of athletics. But at least *some* of it was.