Bad Kiddies -- Heidelberg MusEd discussion

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Date Posted: 09:52:13 05/02/06 Tue
Author: Derek
Subject: Bad Kiddies

During my student teaching this semester, my cooperating teacher told me that there were certain students in band who were absolute pests in their other classes. Apparently, the other teachers told my cooperating teacher that these specific students were failing all their classes, being disruptive during every second the day, and some of them were on the verge of being suspended from school 24/7...

I couldn't believe that some of those kids were really that bad, and neither could my cooperating teacher. In band, they were perfect - literally the best of the best.

I'm done teaching now, but for the last three weeks while I was there we watched these kids like hawks, and they were always paying attention, staying on task, doing their responsibilities, acheiving the standards we set, and generally appeared to be some of the best students in band.

One of the students in particular was a percussionist, and we all know how much harder it is to "maintain" the percussionists since they're so far away. The surprising thing was that this kid in particular was always one of percussionists that payed attention, and we could tell he was really trying his hardest to stay with the director, keep the other percussionists on task, and get a lot out of band. The fact that his other teachers told us how bad he was in his other classes just shocked us completely.

This brings me to my question: Band is obviously very rewarding for some students, and in some cases, it's the only class they do well in. I don't think this is a problem where I was teaching, but some schools end up pulling students from any music classes, art classes, or any other "elective" courses so that they can get their grades up again in the core classes. Is that right for teachers and administrators to do???? I certainly don't think so...
I have my reasons, but I'd like to hear other people's reactions to a situation like this.

Say a student in one of your ensembles is doing fantastic, but the school wants to pull them out of your ensemble because they're doing so poorly in their other classes...
What would you do?

One last thought:
Are we the ones that have to suffer because kids are inadequate, incompintent, and in some cases down-right bad in their other classes??????

(Again, this might not be a huge problem in most schools... but let me know what you think)

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Replies:

[> Re: Bad Kiddies -- Amanda, 14:01:06 05/02/06 Tue [1]

I completely understand the situation, in my high school the students had to have specific grades and other requirements to be able to stay in some of the ensembles. I think that if the student is succeeding in music, why take that away?

What I would suggest is to have the faculty members with problems sit down with you and the student (and even the student's parents, the principal, anyone who it might concern) and try to get to the bottom of the situation. Many times teachers are very quick to judge especially if they have already been told that the student is a problem. Then the student gets treated like they are a problem child even before they do anything wrong. Besides pulling the student out of the ensemble probably won't make things better.

Maybe there is an underlying problem that could be fixed if someone just sat down and talked to the student. That isn't always the truth, but I don't think it would hurt!

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[> Re: Bad Kiddies -- Devin Bramel, 08:27:52 05/13/06 Sat [1]

I would agree with Amanda that it is essential to determine, if possible, what is causing certain students to act out in some classes yet behave perfectly well in others. Any number of factors could be an issue: is the student not reacting well to the teacher's style of teaching, does the student harbor some resentment or other feelings of ill will toward the teacher, has the teacher inadvertently offended the student in some way, does the student have problems at home that must be discussed between teacher, principal, and parents, etc.

I also agree that it is important that gossip about students that is passed from teacher to teacher does not affect a teacher's predisposition toward a student. In my junior block experience, several times I heard my cooperating teacher talking with other teachers, in which they would discuss how certain students act in class. While this is not necessarily a bad thing, since it can give teachers the heads-up on any problems that the student might be bringing to class that day, in my opinion it becomes a problem when teachers use these discussions to talk poorly of students without offering any sort of constructive aspect to the discussion. Talking about these things in the hopes of finding a productive solution is never a bad idea, in my opinion; talking for the sake of detailing how unruly a student may be without offering any positive suggestions is a problem.

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[> Re: Bad Kiddies -- Honoree, 18:42:58 04/29/07 Sun [1]

I do not think that the students should be taken out of the ensemble especially if they are doing well. It is possible that the other teachers could collaborate with the teacher of the ensemble in which the students are excelling, and try to find a way to incorporate this other information into the ensemble which they enjoy. The ensemble experience may in the end help the students to do better in their other classes. I do not see any positive effects of removing the student from the ensemble. This action will only make the students upset, as they are being removed from the class at which they excel.

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[> Re: Bad Kiddies -- Amanda M., 08:32:04 05/01/07 Tue [1]

I think some kids respond better to classes like band, choir, gym, or just any class that requires hands on learning. Sometimes, the problem may be that the student is just bored, along with various other factors such as lack of interest in the subject, dislike for the teacher, etc. It would be impractical to pull a kid from a class that they are doing well in and may cause even more behavioral problems. Also, this kind of goes along with what we talk about in our MUS 110 class: everybody learns differently and teachers should find ways to make sure that all of the students have equal opportunites to learn.

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[> Re: Bad Kiddies -- Jessalyn, 11:02:32 05/01/07 Tue [1]

I think its competely wrong to take a student out froma music class. We all have many intellegences, and for some that may be music. Some people are going to be gifted in the art of music making, where as others are good at math. The schools need to start recognizing this and if they truly want their students to excell they need to allow them to do so. Not threaten to take classes away.

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[> Re: Bad Kiddies -- Brian B., 20:50:22 05/08/07 Tue [1]

The points that everyone has made in this thread are all very good. Taking a student away from something that he/she is very good at is very detremental to the student and should be avoided at all costs. However, it would be completely unethical to tell a star player in sports that his grades are too low in choir so he/she will have to be removed and then turn around and say that a student that is doing poorly in gym classes should still be allowed to do band. In the example given by Derek, the best solution would be for the music teacher to approach the student and sit down and discuss what is going wrong in the other classes just as a sports coach would with his players. In that way, the student would be forced to address the issues with someone that he/she has a positive relationship with and work out viable solution. In any case, taking a student out of something they excel at would not be beneficial to the student, however, the equality to the other activities must be considered. This exposes a evil in how the schools are set up in that music activities, art and sports are considered extra-curricular activities when in fact they are important enough to be part of the curriculum for those students who don't excel in other academic fields.

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