VoyForums
[ Show ]
Support VoyForums
[ Shrink ]
VoyForums Announcement: Programming and providing support for this service has been a labor of love since 1997. We are one of the few services online who values our users' privacy, and have never sold your information. We have even fought hard to defend your privacy in legal cases; however, we've done it with almost no financial support -- paying out of pocket to continue providing the service. Due to the issues imposed on us by advertisers, we also stopped hosting most ads on the forums many years ago. We hope you appreciate our efforts.

Show your support by donating any amount. (Note: We are still technically a for-profit company, so your contribution is not tax-deductible.) PayPal Acct: Feedback:

Donate to VoyForums (PayPal):

[ Login ] [ Contact Forum Admin ] [ Main index ] [ Post a new message ] [ Search | Check update time | Archives: [1], 2, 3, 4 ]

[ Next Thread | Previous Thread | Next Message | Previous Message ]

Date Posted: 07:32:04 02/16/05 Wed
Author: Shane
Subject: Re: Romans 13
In reply to: Mike K. 's message, "Romans 13" on 02:30:02 02/15/05 Tue

Your right, this verse presents various dilemmas if taken at face value. Give me a few days to read more on this verse and the general topic it presents. This could be a realy interesting discussion.



>Looking for opinions, interpretations and objections
>here regarding Romans chapter 13, the first verse:
>
>Everyone must submit himself to the governing
>authorities, for there is no authority except that
>which God has established. The authorities that exist
>have been established by God.
>
>In context:
>Consequently, he who rebels against the authority
>is rebelling against what God has instituted, and
>those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. For
>rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for
>those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear
>of the one in authority? Then do what is right and he
>will commend you. For he is God's servant to do you
>good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not
>bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an
>agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer.
>Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the
>authorities, not only because of possible punishment
>but also because of conscience. This is also why you
>pay taxes, for the authorities are God's servants, who
>give their full time to governing.
>
>
>Paul is being absolute here in Verse 1. "no authority
>not established by God".
>
>People used this verse in the Third Reich to preach
>submission to Hitler, even to an extent where good
>Christians participated in all the inhumane cruelties
>of the terror regime.
>
>Some people say "submit only means to bear with it".
>Others say "true submission includes a decision of
>heart, which means active participation"
>Again, others say "Submission requires not only
>outward acceptance, but also inward appreciation."
>
>The deeper you'd dig, the closer you get to the
>Christians engaging in Nazi terror.
>
>Now, Paul really says "no authority not from God",
>which is open to interpretation.
>
>On the one hand, people can argue "If it isn't from
>God, that's not really authority, and since people
>like Saddam don't come from God's appointment, it
>means that they have no authority."
>The crux to this form of argument is that Matthew 4
>teaches us that Satan holds the kingdoms of this earth
>and gives authority to whomever he chooses, which
>would mean "there is no government authority coming
>from God, so Paul is talking about an empty set,
>essentially just wasting paper."
>
>Even in democratic countries, it is not by God's
>anointing how rulers are appointed, but by mass
>elections, where probably a majority of people aren't
>even regenerated believers, as such, godless tools of
>Satan.
>
>The other argumentation is, like mentioned earlier
>"If it's authority, it comes from God, and since
>governments HAVE authority, they come from God".
>The crux there is, however, that it means people like
>Saddam and Hitler also have authority from God and as
>such, rebelling against them or to even suggest they
>should be removed from power would be a rebellion
>against the Lord God, who brought them into that
>position in the first place.
>
>
>There's of course also the faction of people who say
>"That applied at that time, but not today", but
>there's multiple problems involved, because not only
>it questions the transtemporal veracity of the Bible,
>but also assumes that the rulers at that time were
>somehow better than today, when thinking of despots
>like Nero pushes that argument out of the window
>quickly.
>
>Now, I'm looking for your opinions on that matter and
>a few more comments or other interpretations would be
>welcome as well.
>
>
>In Christ,
>Mike K.

[ Next Thread | Previous Thread | Next Message | Previous Message ]

Replies:

  • Re: Romans 13 -- Chris, 07:54:57 02/16/05 Wed
  • Our point... -- Mike K., 08:11:27 02/16/05 Wed
    Post a message:
    This forum requires an account to post.
    [ Create Account ]
    [ Login ]
    [ Contact Forum Admin ]

    Forum timezone: GMT-8
    VF Version: 3.00b, ConfDB:
    Before posting please read our privacy policy.
    VoyForums(tm) is a Free Service from Voyager Info-Systems.
    Copyright © 1998-2019 Voyager Info-Systems. All Rights Reserved.