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Date Posted: 13:31:24 04/06/06 Thu
Author: light
Subject: puzzles
This one that was part of a NYTimes article is supposed to be a classic, but it had me fooled. How about you youse?
Two hundred green marbles are in a green jar, and 200 red marbles are in a red jar. Thirty marbles are removed from the green jar and put into the red jar, which is then shaken and stirred. Thirty marbles are then scooped from that mixture and put back into the green jar. Which jar has more of the wrong color marbles?
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Replies:
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Re: puzzles -- 23, 13:39:31 04/06/06 Thu [1]
They should have the same amount of wrong colored marbles, right?
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Re: puzzles -- light, 13:44:26 04/06/06 Thu [1]
... want more conclusions before answering.
more dramatic, y'know? ;)
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Re: puzzles -- taurus, 13:46:49 04/06/06 Thu [1]
I am going to say the red jar. I've been going back and forth with it but, I think it would be more possible to scoop out more red ones and remove a few green ones after the mix. so you could possibly put a few green ones back.
do you know the answer? cuz eventually I want to know.
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Re: puzzles -- 23, 13:59:50 04/06/06 Thu [1]
My answer was based on the assumption that the marbles were perfectly mixed. In other words, any given sample would have the same proportion of wrong colored marbles as the whole jar.
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Re: puzzles -- sado light, 14:06:12 04/06/06 Thu [1]
You can not base your answer on the assumption that the marbles were perfectly mixed.
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Re: puzzles -- 23, 14:23:12 04/06/06 Thu [1]
Wha?
I repeat. Wha?
Well then, it's not really possible to know the answer, is it?
Well eff you and your tricksiness!
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Re: puzzles -- light, 14:44:22 04/06/06 Thu [1]
I might not have understood the nature of your assumption correcty. Were you saying that the thirty green marbles that were placed in the red jar were mixed with the reds so perfectly that any scoop then taken from the red jar would have the same proportion of green to reds as the whole jar would have?
That's what I was saying you couldn't assume. And it would still be possible to know the answer.
and throwing temper tantrums won't help you. *tsk* bad boy.
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Re: puzzles -- 23, 14:50:16 04/06/06 Thu [1]
Yes, that is what I was saying. How could you still know the answer without knowing the proportion of marbles in the sample you've taken? That seems like crucial information.
Well color me curious, then.
Me wanna know the answer!
And me wanna throw tantrums when me feels like it!
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Re: puzzles -- taurus, 15:02:22 04/06/06 Thu [1]
He didn't say please, so he gets a time out.
p.s. I'm dying to know the answer too!
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Re: puzzles -- lite, 15:07:53 04/06/06 Thu [1]
Good point tg.
And for 23--
I will post the answer late tonight, IF you're good. That should give you plenty of time to think about your behavior, and anticipate your punishment... I mean, think about the puzzle.
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Re: puzzles -- 23, 15:12:31 04/06/06 Thu [1]
Eff you and your patiently doled-out answers!
I'ma gonna google!
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Re: puzzles -- 23, 15:17:41 04/06/06 Thu [1]
http://groups.google.com/group/uk.philosophy.humanism/browse_thread/thread/ec1719f8487f6c32/ce8ddf29ab4fcb7f?lnk=raot#ce8ddf29ab4fcb7f
I won't say what it said in case people are wanting to work it out themselves.
Oh, and "please."
:)
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Re: puzzles -- tg, 15:26:27 04/06/06 Thu [1]
I read the answer and I bet if you physically tried the puzzle, you would not get that answer.
We need a new puzzle.
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Re: puzzles -- lite, 15:40:03 04/06/06 Thu [1]
New puzzles are definitely welcome.
And yes, even reading the solution, that one's hard to 'get', but once you do it's very clear.
23, I see an improvement in your attitude, but you obviously still need some correction in that area...
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Re: puzzles -- 23, 15:43:12 04/06/06 Thu [1]
It also said in that same article that a different version would be to do the same thing but with a glass of water and a glass of wine.
(and we're going to have a talk after you post the results, light!)
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Re: puzzles -- 23, 15:53:32 04/06/06 Thu [1]
Well, since we're the only three interested in this thread (where's Jes today, anyway?), I'm going to go ahead and just say it.
I was right on both accounts, near as I can tell - they'd have the same amount and the mixture would have to be perfect for it to work.
So, you lied to me lighty! YOU LIED! My whole world is crumbling around my ears! LIGHT LIED! WHO CAN I TRUST ANYMORE??!!?? IS GOD DEAD, TOO??!!?? WHAT ABOUT THE TOOTH FAIRY??!!??
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Re: puzzles -- lite, 16:10:42 04/06/06 Thu [1]
No, you were wrong on at least one account, which says the reasoning you used was mistaken.
Now, into your room and I don't want to hear a peep out of you!! Or else!!
BTW interesting article, huh?
and really-- where the fuck is Jess??
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Re: puzzles -- 23, 16:31:04 04/06/06 Thu [1]
Then explain it to me, because I can't figure it out any other way.
I basically did the math and worked the proportions and that's how I came up with my result.
How did you figure it out differently?
Especially in light of the water/wine iteration. The water and the wine would definitely mix perfectly since we're dealing with molecules, not marbles.
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Re: puzzles -- lighty, 06:09:21 04/07/06 Fri [1]
Two hundred green marbles are in a green jar, and 200 red marbles are in a red jar. Thirty marbles are removed from the green jar and put into the red jar, which is then shaken and stirred. Thirty marbles are then scooped from that mixture and put back into the green jar. Which jar has more of the wrong color marbles?
Most people (if they're not going off on a mathematical red herring) will pick the red jar as having more of the wrong color marbles. The logic seeming that when you take a bunch of marbles from the green jar and put them into the red, there has to be more wrong colored (in this case green) marbles in that jar (red), than in the green jar after you transfer the same number of marbles back into that one-- seeing that when you transfer back there will be a mix of green (right color) and red (wrong color) going into the green jar, instead of all the wrong color like in the original scoop (all green into red).
I think what throws people (like me) off, is that they're only thinking about the amount of colors (right or wrong) that are added to the jars, and fail to factor in the marbles that are subtracted from the jars with each scoop. In other words, we're thinking about the thirty green marbles put in the red jar from the green, then the mixed colors being put into the green one from the red, without considering what each jar is missing with the scoops. No matter what colors were transferred, each jar will be missing the same numbers of the right color as the other jar will be getting of wrong color. And the right colors they are missing will have to have been replaced by the wrong ones.
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step I-- green jar 200g(-)30. or 170g
red jar now has 230 marbles-- 200r, 30g.
step II-- red jar(-)30 of the r,g mix, brings it to 200 mixed; green jar(+)30 of the r,g mix, is now 200 mixed.
no matter how many of each color is transferred with the scoop each jar will have the same amount of wrong colored marbles.
(how well the marbles were mixed, or whether the marble colors in the scoop are in the same proportion as those in the scooped jar are not factors).
examples of step II:
Of the 30 taken from the (now mixed) red jar, 5 are green and 25 are red, and they are put into the green jar.
so the red jar will have 25 green marbles (out of the 30 first put in) 175 red (the original 200 minus 25)-- or 25 wrong colored marbles.
the green jar will have 25 red marbles and 5 green ones just transferred in, added to 170 green marbles remaining from the first scoop. And that's 25 wrong colored marbles too.
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Of the 30 taken from the shaken, stirred red jar 11 marbles are green and 19 are red. They are put into the green jar.
so the red jar will have 19 green marbles (the 30 first put in minus 11) and 181 red ones (the original 200 minus 19). That's 19 wrong colored marbles.
the green jar will have 19 red marbles from the scoop, plus the 11 green ones, added on to the 170 other greens that were left in from the first scoop, making it 181 green. So it also has 19 wrong colored ones.
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Try it, you... you... skeptics!
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Re: puzzles -- 23, 12:30:01 04/07/06 Fri [1]
I was thinking about it in my math-head way, and going a little too complicated instead of going more logical. Thanks for explaining.
And did anyone check out this link from that article?
http://www.langorigami.com/
Absolutely amazing stuff...
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Re: puzzles -- lite, 09:48:46 04/10/06 Mon [1]
It's totally amazing what Lang can do. The insect ones are the ones that knocked me out the most. How the heck can he get all those details, especially all the pointy legs and antennae, out of one square sheet of paper?? wow!
Back with the jar thing, I realized that it could have been explained in a much easier way: If you have two jars that will have exactly the same number of marbles in them, and the over-all quantity of both colors of marbles used is exactly the same... any way that they are distributed has to result in the jars having the exact opposite proportion of marble colors (or the same number of 'wrongs' for each jar). Yes, it took me this long to get that thought together :P
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Re: puzzles -- 23, 10:06:15 04/10/06 Mon [1]
The insects blew me away, too.
I also really dug the koi with all the scales. The herons were amazing, too.
I still can't wrap my head around how he does it. I downloaded a few of the crease patterns and it just doesn't even seem possible.
(I didn't try to do any of them - I'm not that crazy)
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Re: puzzles -- tg, 10:15:35 04/10/06 Mon [1]
I called it! 23 made post count 23.
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Re: puzzles -- lite, 10:27:27 04/10/06 Mon [1]
You win!! hahaha
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Re: puzzles -- carson1, 10:48:47 04/10/06 Mon [1]
Purple! Hell, I don't know. I'm not good at puzzles like this. I have enormously bad spacial skills. This dang thread was just a whole bag of confusion. The only thing I want in a jar is my hooch! whooo-doggie!
Seriously, I would have said green....
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