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Date Posted: 08:49:50 09/24/02 Tue
Author: 3Strikes/PLEASE POST HERE
Subject: TUESDA EDITION-NEW FORMAT

NEW: New format. Questions not answered come first, followed by partially answered questions. Answered questions at the bottom for reference.

NEW: To avoid confusion, please indicate which questions you're answering in the Title. The board has become a huge mess! : )

NEW: The questions that have been answered are now followed by the answers and the names of those who provided the answers. The answers and comments have been edited for clarity.

ANSWERED: 4,5,6,7,8,10,11,12,15 PARTIALLY ANSWERED: 1,2,3,14,16 and WTP's #7. NOT ANSWERED:9,13,17, and WtP's questions.

NOT ANSWERED

9)"Gotta be with movin' forward," says Xander in Restless. "Like a shark with feet..." *Forward* ? Where are they both moving forward to ? Where are they going? For that matter where are we all going, though by different means ?

13)What are these "things you can't protect yourself from?" If you knew them, it would blow your mind.

17) Which Questions are related ? Make the right associations and finish the game.

PARTIALLY ANSWERED

1)Why did Xander believe he could help Faith ? REVISED: THREE must lead, TWO must deceive. What will be the result ?
ANSWERED by Gentle Spirit: Hubris and lack of self-knowledge.
NEW: PARTIALLY ANSWERED by multiple posters and RJA: One of the three is Love. Not characters. Motivators/triggers.

RJA said: "So the motivators are love, guilt/grief and another. The deceivers are *faulty* clarity and hubris, lack of self knowledge?
Since I'm missing the last, this is an incomplete picture, but from what I can glean, Anya will die/leave. Xander can't deal with this, blames himself etc etc. Now the problem I get to is how he has a vision, and what it is of. How does one acquire the sight? Or is it just borrowed.
Either way he has a vision, sees something terrible happen to Buffy? (I think), and in his mind the only way this can be averted is if he becomes a vampire (although Im not sure why, but it must be linked to his human status or maybe vamps other status). He thinks there is no other way, hence faulty clarity. The other deceiver would be his belief that his love could transcend his vamped state, or woul compel him to act in the right way. Kinda like the inverse Grave where he thinks his love can bring Willow back, or the Faith example. But in this case its the deceiver because it cant - VampXander wont act in the way he predicted, and it was never the only choice he could have made.
Close?"

3Strikes's comments: "Ah, Grasshoper! Now we get to the meat of the argument. You got 4 of the 5 right. The 3rd motivator is easy: what kind of feeling/emotion would the kind of *faulty* clarity Muad'Dib experienced evoke ? That's the 3rd motivator.
The sight/vision. Yes. How does one acquire such a *gift* ? If you answer #8, you might find someone else who was in a similar situation. *g*
Yes, on the Buffy vision, But how does it relate to the Guilt/Grief ?
Actually, in pratical terms, I don't really know why Xander would believe becoming a Vampire could be of help to Buffy. My guess is the increase in strength, greater resiliency. But it must be something huge. In any event, the practical why is interesting but secondary to the fact that it does happen.
Very good on the faulty Clarity. Deceived by the vision (think Wesley on ATS), and his hubris (belief that he holds the only solution), Xander makes a lethal mistake. Whether he actually believes he can control the vampirism is a very very interesting question. Does his hubris extend so far, or does he know that he won't be able to control it, and resigns himself to become evil to help Buffy. How does this make sense ? Well, Vamp Xander might not have a choice in helping Buffy. Think of the answer to #6. Would Xander accept not only becoming a vampire, but an evil monster as well, to help Buffy. I don't know the answer to that! I'll be surprised too! But it would take a horrible set of circumstances to make it happen. Horrible. But how does it relate to the Guilt/Grief ?


2)Are the *Bad* PTBs always Bad ? Are the *Good* PTBs always good ? Though the answer to that has already been clearly stated. But not where you might think. NEW: If you've heard the piping voice, and been blinded by the white, you know what I'm referring to.
PARTIALLY ANSWERED by lele: "They're probably the same. Wolfram and Hart's higher level partners probably have some connection to the same PTB that guides Angel. Blinded by the white? Are you referring to the Angel episode where he gets lilah to get him into a meeting with the senior partners(in order to get Connor back) only to be met by that scary little girl in the white room(didn't she say something like-"poor little angel wants his baby back..."

3Strikes's comments: "What happened there to prove that The Bad PTB's agenda was greater than simple *evil*. And I'm not talking about what they did for Angel. What was revealed?"

RJA added: "The girl revealed that they like trouble, but hate chaos. They showed Sahjahn being made immaterial, incorporeal - so this suggests they don't just want evil, they want their own brand of evil. I'm still missing something though.

3Strikes's further comments: "Very good. Exactly right. What does it mean for S7? Who else might they not be taking a liking to ? What will they do about it?"


3)Is Lurky the only purveyor of Afterlife in town? How *Tragic* would it be for one character to avail him/herself of the alternative ? NEW: Maybe I should have uncapitalized Afterlife. Afterall, it's such a common occurence. Always? Well, maybe not.
ANSWERED by Ramses (though she didn't believe)and Monkey:

Monkey said:"Now, what your cryptic speculation suggests to me is that maybe Xander will deliberately get himself vamped. So maybe Xander concludes again that he knows more than he does, or has a better idea than he really has, and decides that if a vampire is needed, he should try to become one. (Your question about whether Lurky was the only purveyor of afterlife is what suggested to me the idea that Xander might not only get vamped, but do so deliberately.

3strikes's comments: "Excellent! What would it take for Xander to do it? Under what circumstances ? For whom? When? Why?(I mean causality here). Why is it particularly *tragic* for Xander?"

A riddle based on what I hope happens. Too juicy to ignore, but won't necessarily make it to the screen.
14) Rage, Passion, Hate What song precipitates their fate ? Rage, Passion, Hate What Moon to set their course ? Rage, Passion, Hate What star to find their way ? Rage, Passion, Hate Will they strife ? For whose fate ? Rage, Passion, Hate.
PARTIALLY ANSWERED by RJA and WebDeb:

RJA said:"I don't get all of this. But rage,passion and hate would be three people? Or three *creatures*, although not necessarily evil souless creatures. So I would guess maybe Angelus Spike and Xander."

WebDeb: "If Angel, Spike and Xander represent rage, passion and hate, then these will be their motivating factors: Angelus-Hate, Xander-Rage, Spike-Passion."

16)3 of a kind. Third shall he be. But third, third and third ? We shall see.
PARTIALLY ANSWERED by Monkey, and RJA:
RJA said: "Is the three of a kind Angel(us), Spike and Xander again? But Xander might not turn out like them?

3Strikes's comments: "Xander might not turn out like them? Or will he ? In any event, that's only part of the answer."

7. Knights . . . Shmites . . . don't forget -- it's all about the goats! Besides, if it was Knights, then the most important question would be "who's your sire?" Either that, or who is going in which direction.

PARTIALLY ANSWERED by Monkey:"Win lose or draw, I'm also willing to bet that WtP's question about "who's your sire" is referring to vampire sire, not king.

ANSWERED

4)Is the map the territory ? Is the Playground in your mind's eye the backward symbol or the reality ?
ANSWERED by RJA and Butrcup:
RJA said: "The playground scene is in Lie to Me, not Restless - the songs her mother sang her. "Run and catch". And also "Also, if this is right, its also the exact same playground as in Restless, although no one is sitting on the swings. But dark light, inverse. I'm pretty sure it makes sense, even if the actual facts aren't right."

Butrcup said: "And then we have the playground. Drusilla, speaking to Angel: "you can't hurt me, can you?" and "the lamb is caught in the blackberry patch." maybe these things aren't even relevant, though... the map is not the reality. and the playground is the representation of the past, not the actuality. so what happens in the playground? drusilla finds a boy, talks to him about her mom, and intends to feed on him, but angel intervenes. Drusilla reminds angel of the pain he caused her, and knows he won't let himself hurt her anymore. he tells her to leave or there will be trouble.

3strikes's comments: "Perfectly right! Drusilla is the Shark and you've found the right playground. Exactly what I was talking about!


5)Is a Shark evil ? Is an Evil Shark with a *higher* purpose Evil ?
ANSWERED by RJA and Butrcup:
RJA said: "Drusilla? She could be a shark with a higher purpose. While Evil because she is a vampire, if her actions largely result in good things (maybe Spike?)then she may be on the side of good after all. If she sires Xander, the knights will cross (as you've said). She sings songs of sorrow - much like Cassandra. The poor little thing has no idea what's in store. But as pointed above its not songs, its visions that she has no control over. The playground scene is in Lie to Me, not Restless - the songs her mother sang her. "Run and catch".

Butrcup said: "Okay, a few more thoughts. (see, once I get started, it's hard to shut me up.) So we know (or think) now that Cordelia and Drusilla sing songs of things to come. It's interesting to think that Drusilla may well have ended up like the colonial girl that Skip introduced Cordy to, whose visions killed her, if she hadn't been vamped! So if Dru's visions are from the PtB, then that would be her *higher purpose*. So Drusilla would be the shark (I think this was said already) with the PtB using her (sort of) by giving her visions.

3strikes's comments: "Perfectly right! Drusilla is the Shark and you've found the right playground. You've also bingoed the higher purpose! If she's forced into it by the visions, how could Drusilla, who's been *twisted* into evil by Angelus, be evil even if her actions appear horrendous? Very well done!"

6)Who sings songs of things to come ? Why do they sing of sorrow?
ANSWERED By Butrcup, RJA, WebDeb, Tracey and Monkey:

Butrcup said:"So i think it's Cordy. She has visions of things to come, and they're sorrowful in order to prevent that sorrow - or some greater sorrow."
RJA said: "Drusilla?" "She sings songs of sorrow - much like Cassandra. The poor little thing has no idea whats in store. But as pointed above its not songs, its visions that she has no control over."
WebDeb said: "Spike - who in his "insanity" will have the ability and Cordy, who was previously discussed.
Tracey said: "Buffy and Faith? (they've had, and should still be having, prophetic visions). And Cassie, from the episode "Help"?"

3Strikes's comments: "There should be one more, but who won't be
apparent for awhile."

Monkey completed the Riddle: "Combining the above with a question you ask someone below about "why should Xander believe a prophecy someone else tells him?" I would conclude that the final, as yet unknown seer is Xander himself."


7) Let me rephrase old question 7. Upon further reconsideration, it is the weakest part of the speculation. Very possible. But not the only possibility. Upon the road of Fate, the Knight Descendant and the Knight Ascendant were Bound to meet. Asked the Child of Black and gold: "What did you give for Love ?" "Death and Life, my soul," answered the other. Asked the Childe of Gold and black: "What will you give for Love ?" "Life and Death, my soul," answered the other. Which is the greater sacrifice ?
ANSWERED by Ramses and Monkey:
Ramses said: "Xander and Spike? One gains a soul for love one gives one up? The white knight sacrifices everything?(This would define Romance. Not romance novel but literary Romance.)"

Monkey said: "The implication is that one of the Knights is Spike and one Xander, travelling in opposite directions -- vampire to human, human to vampire. Here's one idea for an alternative motivation. If you are correct about the symmetry, then presumably they both do it for love, which is one reason you might have said that my surmise with respect to Xander's motivation was wrong. The implication would be Xander becoming a vampire with a soul for Buffy, so that Buffy can in some sense "get what she deserves" -- a phrase broad enough to cover an awful lot of territory, which I can't narrow down at the moment. And of course Spike would have given up death, and Xander life, for this love.

3Strikes's comments: "The matter of the soul is *very* much in question. And it's not necessarily about "what she deserves." In Xander's case, I strongly believe it's going to be a case of what he believes (alas mistakenly) "she needs desperately." I guess you've come far enough for me to complete the riddle: Spike gave up death (as a true vampire) to give Buffy his life (as a souled vampire) and his soul (you forgot that innocuous part, didn't you? : ) ). Xander will give up his life (as a living man), his soul (forgot about that one too!) for Buffy in order to give her his death (his existence as a vampire to save/help her). Unfortunately for Xander, I think that Vamp Xander will have other ideas about this arrangement. Who's going to do the siring?

Monkey answered thus: "Drusilla?" "If she sires Xander, the knights will cross (as you've said)."


8)Did you catch the cross-over last year ? If you haven't, don't worry. It was gone in a blast. NEW: Do you believe in invisible hands ?

ANSWERED by Butrcup (and her clever husband : ) ):"Okay, what are the clues we have so far? Blast (which happened on BtVS). Invisible hands. From AtS to BtVS. Someone was in a position to cross over. Something that didn't make sense can be explained by the crossover. It has some connection or parallel to how Xander will be acquiring the *gift* of sight. This smacks of Cordelia to my clever husband (and to me). She was in a new "position" after her ascension, and could probably have been invisible if need be. She acquired her visions because someone who loved her had them and died. We know that the PtB weren't too happy about that, either - they "missed" that when it happened, but they've "got a handle on life and death" stuff, according to skip. Something that didn't make sense last year: Xander got *blasted* by all that mojo by Willow, but didn't seem to be affected at all, save being knocked down. he didn't even have to clear his head. So what if Cordelia, now being in a position to know more than
ust what she sees first-hand, was sent (or went herself) to protect Xander and thus prevent his death and the death of the whole world?? Skip certainly was in a big hurry to get her to ascend!!

10)If Holtz had been vamped, would he have still hated Angel/Angelus ? Do you think Angelus will have family problems when he comes to Sunnydale ?

ANSWERED by RJA:"Someone stated before that Angel still felt something strongly for Buffy when he became Angelus, and he also hated his father after being turned. So that suggests that hate transcends (and maybe perhaps love turns into hate) being made into a vampire. If Xander was made a vampire, would his hate for Angel and Spike cause problems? And if Angelus came back to Sunnydale, would there be a grandson who hated him a great deal?"

3Strikes's comments: "Hehe! Perfect answer! Now plug it in one of the riddles, and think how juicy that scene would be!"

11)This clue is hidden in plain sight. Blatantly, insolently even. But in the Jossverse, applying the concept defined by the clue could result in some seriously eldritch geometry. : ) Unravel the clue and apply the concept upon the fulcrum of Restless, and watch a 7 years tale unfold.
ANSWERED by 3Strikes: "Supersymmetry," both mirror and true, short and long.

12)That Xander would lay down his life for Willow, Anya or Buffy is a given. But would he kill the innocent for one of them ?
ANSWERED by Lele: "I think he would under the right circumstances esp if the 'innocent' was himself."

15) When is Blindness a blessing, and Clarity the worst kind of Blindness? When is a Mistake not a mistake, and why will the difference be a cause for tears ? NEW: Muad'Dib understands the curse of Clarity.
ANSWERED By Webdeb and RJA:

WebDeb said: "Blindness is a blessing when you remain in ignorance of the truth staring right in front of you."

WebDeb said: "A Mistake is not a mistake when it is done intentionally. A mistake not done intentionally is usually caused by a person's wrong judgment or misunderstanding, (ed. note: or an accident). A Mistake would be a cause for tears when they REALIZE the Mistake is due to their blindness and by that time, it's usually too late to correct."

RJA said: "The worst kind of Clarity would be knowing what is to happen, yet feel you can't change it. Muad Dib saw terrible things ahead, yet all his choices seemed to result in terrible consequences. Drusilla had clarity, before she was vamped, and knew what her fate was to be. I guess in that situation, blindness would be a blessing. So for someone to see/know what would happen would be a curse (ed.note: if they thought they couldn't change it),but it's also a form of blindness if being convinced you know what is to come obscures the fact that you can actually change it."

3Strikes's comments: "Perfect Answer. You've nailed Clarity exactly. Now put it together with Webdeb's Blindness and Mistake answers, use the answers to other questions in the larger context, and watch as the Dominoes start falling.

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